----------------------------------- DoktorNo Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:49 pm Murphy's face. ----------------------------------- Can I reactivate the topic, in whitch we were discussing Murphy's face after his conversion to RoboCop? I am restraining myself to express mine opinions, until somebody say something in this topic. :) ----------------------------------- Hob976 Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:20 pm ----------------------------------- Man, I don't know... I assume you're refuring to whats real and whats not, right? (sorry. Never read the thread). We know that most of his jaw is machanical, cuz we see it protruding on the sides. It could be argued that his eyes are his own, but the targeting and the MS DOS Directives n'shit are in his brain, or in his visor... Or perhaps he just has robotic eyes... ------Does he see targeting when he's shooting the baby bottles in the end with no helmet...? We know his skin has come out flawless, from at least 3 exploding, firey infernos... So I can't imagine his skin is his own. -------But that doesn't explain the bullet hole... Am I just WAY OFF here, or is that the direction the topic was going...? ----------------------------------- Lethal Response Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:31 pm ----------------------------------- His eyes are indeed cybernetic, as his targeting reticule is active, regardless of whether he is/isn't wearing the helmet. My guess is that OCP could easily repair any flesh wound, via skin grafting. I mean, just look at how advanced technology is in the film... one is left to assume that medical science is equally as advanced. Also, this does not explain the bullet wound, as I'm assuming, they could've repaired that rather easily. Has it ever been explained what exists underneath Murphy's skin? Yes, his face is still intact but what if his skull is reinforced somehow, as to avoid serious damage altogether. Like many, I always ponder the possibility of Robo getting shot in the face and what the consequences would be, were that to happen. ----------------------------------- murphy38 Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:09 am ----------------------------------- I think that the face of Murphy is it his, his jaw is a mechanical prosthesis, it has eyes artificial cybernethic, but I think that that is its truths skin what would explain the hole of the ball. There remains to him a part of limps cranial and of the frontal lob, its skin is irigation by the tubes which frames are face. I think that ball impacts it seriously damaged the backside & behind of the head under the skin of Murphy I think that there must be pins surgical re attach with the frontal lob and the metal disc to hold the Clerc's Office of the processors, they have to raise the skin and to replace after. ----------------------------------- CAIN MKII Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:40 am ----------------------------------- Why OCP bother giving a human face to robocop? For the public, to deal with murphy's questions regarding his identity or human nature? I do think everything is artificial; nothing's left from the original skull. Way too much trouble to make parts of a human skull joined to metal. Even the mask is artificial, a cast of murphy's face after his death (explaining the bullet hole). No way they skinned his face.Could you imagine the trouble to keep a living skin "alive" on a metalic surface? Hell they didn't even went in such trouble for his arm, they got rid of it. What would happen to murphy's mental health if he decided to tear off the mask and deal with his true nature? ----------------------------------- DoktorNo Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:29 am ----------------------------------- My assumptions: 1.)The skin is Murphy's one, but underneath there is amalgamate of metal skeleton and bones. 2.)The face of poor Murphy has been propably saved, because of two possible reasons: a.) The technology is not so advanced, so the just fitted head to cybernetic body, b.) To preserve some humanity and spare Murphy from shock, that could make him suicidical or psychotic (see prototypes and RoboCain in R#2) . ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:31 pm ----------------------------------- I always ponder the possibility of Robo getting shot in the face and what the consequences would be, were that to happen. As far as body armor gose in the real world, We have kevlar helmets & kevlar vests. Why only them? Well, a Perpetrator will shoot at the largest parts of the body. IE head & body. A firearms wound to these parts of the body are fatal! If you get shot in the arm or leg, chances are you live. As for his mouth? Well it's a very small area. There is very little chance of a round hitting him there. He is only a product to OCP!! ----------------------------------- Mephisto Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:25 pm ----------------------------------- I definitely have aways thought the skull was made of metal..but the face was his. Shooting him in the face would most likely just cause cosmetic damage..nothing fatal. As for the mouth...small chance of it happing as it is, but it maybe fatal. Depends on the metal skull theory being correct or not. Hell he'd have to have a metal skull to survive having his head swung through metal pipes and shit by RoboCain in R2. ----------------------------------- SiR-ROUND Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:54 pm ----------------------------------- metal disc to hold the Clerc's Office of the processors He's babblefishin' for clues again! :mrgreen: ----------------------------------- Mephisto Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:24 pm ----------------------------------- metal disc to hold the Clerc's Office of the processors He's babblefishin' for clues again! :mrgreen: I like that. :lol: I didn't even catch that until i read through it again. ----------------------------------- artuditu Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:45 pm ----------------------------------- I always have thought that behind the skin there is still his human skull but with cybernetic modifications, just as the prototype in R2 when he takes out his helmet. ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:56 pm ----------------------------------- I think the fron part ( face, skull ) is human. ----------------------------------- DoktorNo Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:36 pm ----------------------------------- For some resons, I think that this discussion is only theoretical. As I said before the crash, if Murphy did't have his organic face as a cyborg, the movie audience would have problems with relating to the movie hero. :) ----------------------------------- SiR-ROUND Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:38 pm ----------------------------------- I think the whole face is fake, but that doesn't xplain the bullet hole. ----------------------------------- artuditu Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:48 pm ----------------------------------- For some resons, I think that this discussion is only theoretical. As I said before the crash, if Murphy did't have his organic face as a cyborg, the movie audience would have problems with relating to the movie hero. :) It may also be a pure marketing issue from the point of view of OCP, all kind of interactive machines have always tried to imitate human likeness and emotions (such as a human voice) to get a better reaction and empathy from the customer, a robot which "appears" to be human is a bit better for social purposes than an ed-209 that would scare you to death if you were someone innocent that needs help or something (for example the lady and the rapers). ----------------------------------- SiR-ROUND Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:54 pm ----------------------------------- True... Robo was to be used in public a replacement officer. You wouldn't call Cain an officer now would you? ----------------------------------- artuditu Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:01 pm ----------------------------------- That's the problem and OCP incompetence, ED-209 and RoboCain are much more like war machines than urban police officers. But on the other hand that's what makes the films funny, sarcastic and exagerated. ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:12 pm ----------------------------------- I think the whole face is fake, but that doesn't xplain the bullet hole. haha agin witty SiR I dont know imagine the Robocop with a other face ! Looks good ehm althought ! :roll: so why the ideas ! His eyes are indeed cybernetic, as his targeting reticule is active, regardless of whether he is/isn't wearing the helmet hmm oki but then I dont understand how he could weep in the PD in the 3 part ! :roll: so who explain this will be really king !! ----------------------------------- Josh Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:24 pm ----------------------------------- I think that the crying in PD was to show a degree of humanity in Robo. Personally I think Robo wouldnt cry as the OCP technicians would have removed any organics that were not of any use. ----------------------------------- SiR-ROUND Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:00 pm ----------------------------------- True, Anything after Robocop 1 and 2 is pure speculation and/or poor writing skills. ----------------------------------- Mephisto Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:25 pm ----------------------------------- Eyes would still require lubercation...so yeah he can cry. ----------------------------------- Hob976 Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:24 pm ----------------------------------- Eyes would still require lubercation...so yeah he can cry. Do T-800's have lubrication...? I'm pretty sure that they established in some of the cheezier parts of T2 that Terminators can't cry... True, Anything after Robocop 1 and 2 is pure speculation and/or poor writing skills. True that. Please!!!! Lets keep PD out of this...!!! We're trying to have a sound and rational conversation about what parts of a Law Enforcement Cyborg from the future's face would be organic... "GOD...!!!" (insert Napolean Dynamite voice...) I kinda picture parts of an organic skull, with metal bonded to it like the Wolverine's... (to extend this absurdity into even other comic realms) Further... Frank Miller (who wrote one of the two most relevent movies) painted this... http://www.hobbery.com/robocop/images/12/Miller_7.jpg At least I think Miller painted it... right? Whatever. ----------------------------------- Mephisto Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:32 am ----------------------------------- Eyes would still require lubercation...so yeah he can cry. Do T-800's have lubrication...? I'm pretty sure that they established in some of the cheezier parts of T2 that Terminators can't cry. Ah shit....I forgot about that. :? Would explain why no matter what happens between Robo and his wife in the second film..he never crys or looks that sad. Good point Hob976. Also yeah, lets keep that shit PD out of this. Nothing in that film should be considered canon to the Movie series or the character itself. ----------------------------------- artuditu Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:47 am ----------------------------------- Eyes would still require lubercation...so yeah he can cry. Do T-800's have lubrication...? I'm pretty sure that they established in some of the cheezier parts of T2 that Terminators can't cry... Man I think you misunderstood that, it's not he can't physiologicaly cry, is that he was emotionally unable to understand how to do it (note the absurdity of "to do it", crying is not something we learn to do and we choose to do, but something that happens to us, that's why a machine can't cry). I think terminator fake eyes definately could lubricate, in the first film we can perfectly see how they are organic when he removes one, though they are more like lenses, but still organic. ----------------------------------- Mephisto Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:24 am ----------------------------------- :huhwhat: Another good point...Shit. :? I guess his eyes are real...he's just too hardass to cry. ----------------------------------- Hob976 Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:11 am ----------------------------------- I'm pretty sure that in the end of T2 (though it's been a while), Arnie says something along the lines of: "I know now why you cry (just imagine the voice)... but it's something I can never do". I might be off by a word, but that's a pretty solid open/shut case.... We're juggling semantics here, over whethor Terminators can cry, when THE Terminator (in a Terminator movie) actually says "I can't cry...". I think terminator fake eyes definately could lubricate Word. That makes sense. Lubed, they may be. But I'm not sure that equals tears. In fact, if you can stab that fake eye with a razor, and pluck it out of your own face without BLINKING ...and you don't shed ONE TEAR.... something that happens to us THAT would be an optimal time for it to happen to any robot from the future modeled after Mr. Universe... Eithor way. that's why a machine can't cry We seem to agree on this point... Ah... But OCP-001 is part human! Yep. So damned if I know... Let's just cut the Bull Sh*t... How does he pee...!!! God, we're all just dancing around the real issues, here. And I know you all wonder it...!!! Where's the baby food go!!! ----------------------------------- Burnout Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:50 am ----------------------------------- IO always thought the baby food was just pure nutrients, his organics are so simple that the technicians only give him what his body needs, so there would be no waist or deification required. Remember that Johnson says it "tastes just like baby food" not that it actually is baby food. Although Lewis does bring him the substance in jars of baby food, so that could just be an inconsistency. ----------------------------------- Hob976 Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:31 am ----------------------------------- Burnout, we've got to get to the bottom of this... This face "situation" is a decoy. There's more at steak here... ----------------------------------- miamirobo Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:37 pm ----------------------------------- I think the face is his as as some of you have mentioned it was to give the Hero a human face the public can identify on the other hand OCP wanted an association with human feel to it since all the other ones failed like ED-209.Behind the face it must me all cyborg with eyes included.The rest I think all of you have given valid speculation as to the whole face thing.What I mostly enjoyed from reading this thread is seeing the love and dedication we all have for Robocop! :D :D :D :D ----------------------------------- Josh Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:06 pm ----------------------------------- Damn those are some great points made there by our resident experts. Someone made a basic statement, then others argues and came to a conclusion... Now, does Robo breath? ----------------------------------- Hob976 Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:39 am ----------------------------------- Damn you, Roboduck... This has got to be the best new thread since the crash... ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:23 am ----------------------------------- Now, does Robo breath? Ach Jesus! of course Duck .. that is easy he has a brain and the brain needs the oxygen ! heh also in the R3 then he is lie on the a metal table we can to see the breathing ! and I think also in the Nahas book was a talk about it ! so ? :wink: ----------------------------------- Hob976 Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:53 am ----------------------------------- Ah ha.... (I can't believe nobodys pulled this out, yet) Clearly, we can see ventilation in the rear, going seamingly straight to the brain... http://www.robocoparchive.com/info/blueprint8.jpg ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:59 pm ----------------------------------- Also the breathing motion in R3 was a goof! ----------------------------------- Hob976 Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:37 pm ----------------------------------- Dude, R3 was a goof... ----------------------------------- Burnout Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:03 pm ----------------------------------- Dude, R3 was a goof... Nicely said Hob :wink: ----------------------------------- Hob976 Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:58 am ----------------------------------- So any technical questions about Robocop's feet...? http://www.Hobbery.com/images/1/EV_Foot.jpg ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:01 am ----------------------------------- So any technical questions about Robocop's feet...? http://www.Hobbery.com/images/1/EV_Foot.jpg Should have been called Robogoof. You can see the same shot of his feet in R1 too. ----------------------------------- Hob976 Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:38 am ----------------------------------- Dude, no way. What scene...? ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:33 pm ----------------------------------- Not as bad as R3 but here ya go. I would like to add that it pains me to show this goof :cry: http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6236/robofootij6.jpg ----------------------------------- Burnout Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:22 pm ----------------------------------- You dare blemish the original???? You monster! When does it end...... :ohdear: ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:57 pm ----------------------------------- :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: I'm sorry ----------------------------------- artuditu Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:03 pm ----------------------------------- Outrage The Original = minus 50 public trust. ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:18 pm ----------------------------------- Hate me all you want.......it's truth we want!! ----------------------------------- moto1015 Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:45 am ----------------------------------- Hate me all you want.......it's truth we want!! so you want the truth do ya? You can't handle the truth.... I can now officially lay to rest the entire Murphy's Face debate, once and for all. I am in possession of a rare tome known as The Unofficial Behind The Scenes Story of Robocop, published way back in 1989. Amongst other things, it contains an interview with one Mr Rob Bottin and in it, he is asked about the concept for Robocop's design, to which he replies: "The concept is that one of the only pieces left of Murphy, if not the only thing, is his face, which is actually placed on a robotic skull and used as a mask for the robot. The helmet goes over it and then the jaw piece.The public, or the people who created the robot in the movie, would think that it is a man in riot gear armor. When he removes his helmet, what you're supposed to see is that he's really an entire robot and they've just saved the man's face to give it a human aspect so it can deal with people and they won't be put off by the whole thing. In my mind it is flesh. They (the producers) thought it was such an outrageous idea they wanted me to come up with an idea for his face because it was a new angle. We've seen The Terminator where you see the guy get some of his flesh ripped off and you see a little bit of skull and he's got some shiny parts underneath. I thought 'oh I can't bring myself to do that again because I always like to do new things. But what could I do here that woud be totally different and make it interesting?' And what I thought of was the concept that this company wouldn't want to have the first robot in society be very impersonal and be a cop and be coming up to people and telling them what to do. So what they do is use a person's face, which is a leftover piece of a cop after he's been killed, to actually be sort of a cyborg to be able to relate to people. They wouldn't just think he's a machine. Murphy's brain is what operates the whole Robocop. It's actually very disgusting." So there you have it. Since he is the genius who designed Robocop, I think we pretty much have to take his word for it. ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:55 am ----------------------------------- That is damn good stuff!! Problem is with it being a faults skull with Murphys face over it is that in the real world, It wouldn't look like Murphy. You need the skull, muscule & tissue to make it look like the original face. Look at facial re-construction in the reall world. ----------------------------------- artuditu Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:31 am ----------------------------------- Very interesting, another info that Archive should save in the web. As I presumed in the first page the human face was about giving a social image from the point of view of the OCP (independently of what we think there is behind the face). It's VERY logical, since no one seems to think that RoboCop may be a human person, we can see it in the news how people talk and treat him like a new toy, they doesn't seem to be bothered at all by his human face which may imply a human person was used for making it, people just act as he was a complete 100% robot with just a face-mouth that look human. So now... does Robocop have a tongue? Are his teeth real? What's inside his mouth? It may be a human mouth as well, as he need it to eat, but since he wouldn't have a human head and skull that would be quite weird ;P ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:52 am ----------------------------------- This getting very interesting, what dose his digestive system consist of? Dose he eat through his mouth? ----------------------------------- Lethal Response Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:58 pm ----------------------------------- ^ um, yes... yes, he does. :lol: :lol: :lol: I mean, where else could he put that rudimentary paste? :huhwhat: ;) ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:11 pm ----------------------------------- Ever heard of a Nasal gastric tube. ----------------------------------- Lethal Response Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:15 pm ----------------------------------- True enough but they did use the word, "eat" in the film... did they not? I think that implies that it enters his mouth. Besides, RoboCop never wants to eat anyhow. Roborexia. ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:30 pm ----------------------------------- Very true, but Morten might have used the word "eat" in a lose form, to mean sustain. "how do we sustain his organics"? ----------------------------------- artuditu Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:36 pm ----------------------------------- Besides, RoboCop never wants to eat anyhow. Roborexia. Roborexia, that was funny :b But you know, I've always thought he didn't want to eat the baby food because of proud and Lewis being there. I mean would you imagine just how pathetic? It would be like accepting he was no more a human person, eating baby food like a sub-human being would be a complete humilliation to me, and in front of the only person that considers you a man, that's Lewis (a woman also, proud in front of the opposite sex tends to be stronger). ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:50 pm ----------------------------------- But you know, I've always thought he didn't want to eat the baby food because of proud and Lewis being there. I mean would you imagine just how pathetic? It would be like accepting he was no more a human person, eating baby food like a sub-human being would be a complete humilliation to me, and in front of the only person that considers you a man, that's Lewis (a woman also, proud in front of the opposite sex tends to be stronger). Very well said indeed :thumb1: ----------------------------------- SiR-ROUND Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:04 pm ----------------------------------- Ah shit, women find babies cute. Next thing Lewis would be changing Robo's nappies... I mean, the food has to go somewhere? ----------------------------------- SiR-ROUND Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:15 pm ----------------------------------- Eh? I'm just emphasising what Artu said, aren't I? ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:47 pm ----------------------------------- So now... does Robocop have a tongue? Are his teeth real? What's inside his mouth? It may be a human mouth as well, as he need it to eat, but since he wouldn't have a human head and skull that would be quite weird ;P heh good qestions!! But hey why the doubts ?! OMG I think all the head , as skull , skin and of course heh the teeth and tongue are his !!! damn for what would they changed these things ?? Just this is the only human part on him ! and also the Dr Faxx says . " You are only piece of flesh !.. " so ?! And why also the Frank Miller always draw the robocop with the blood in face ?! heh and what he has in the mouth , so this maybe know the Lewis :mrgreen: ----------------------------------- murphy38 Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:56 pm ----------------------------------- Yes I I am OK with Nika, if he(it) had no part(party) human being he(it) does not bleed in the face!!!!! The face is a part of all what stays in him(her) of human being I think. Yes can be that lewis knows it!!! He! He! He! :mrgreen: ----------------------------------- DoktorNo Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:16 pm ----------------------------------- "The concept is that one of the only pieces left of Murphy, if not the only thing, is his face, which is actually placed on a robotic skull and used as a mask for the robot. The helmet goes over it and then the jaw piece.The public, or the people who created the robot in the movie, would think that it is a man in riot gear armor. When he removes his helmet, what you're supposed to see is that he's really an entire robot and they've just saved the man's face to give it a human aspect so it can deal with people and they won't be put off by the whole thing. In my mind it is flesh. So I have been right! ----------------------------------- Lethal Response Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:43 am ----------------------------------- Remember this quote folks? "They made this, to honor him." So, many of our theories are indeed plausible! :) ----------------------------------- murphy38 Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:24 am ----------------------------------- :D Yes quite the theories can indeed be plausible!!!!! But I I think all the same that snt face is all what stays of his(her,its) past of human being, but it is also are true face!!! Nha! :mrgreen: ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:49 am ----------------------------------- "They made this, to honor him." of course we remember this ! .. But of course we all know .. he had to say the sentence ! :wink: ----------------------------------- murphy38 Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:21 am ----------------------------------- :D Well! this is a last sentence :wink: ----------------------------------- Josh Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:27 pm ----------------------------------- http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k234/ScooseMoose/Robo-Innards.jpg Here you go ladies. You can see an Endo skeleton and another layer of armour over that. And then there is the jaw-metal. I use this as this is Miller's 'original' idea so ill use that for now. Sorry about the pic, I had to take a photo cause I didnt want to bend it while scanning. ----------------------------------- * * * * * Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:46 pm ----------------------------------- What is under the Face of Murphy, does anybody have a Photo ----------------------------------- murphy38 Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:53 pm ----------------------------------- :shock: Damn!! very good question my friend!!!! ----------------------------------- Josh Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:53 pm ----------------------------------- No such thing exists, there are only theories and ideas. For example, if you look above, frank Miller thinks he has a mechanical jaw... ----------------------------------- artuditu Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:01 pm ----------------------------------- if you look above, frank Miller thinks he has a mechanical jaw... That's an assumption with little proof in my opinion, as far as we know Miller didn't supervise the comic (as he has stated). He just made the covers and accepted they used his name and the fact it was based in his early script and ideas, but we don't know how much of it there is in the final comic, since Miller nor he wrote the comic nor he supervised it. ----------------------------------- Josh Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:04 pm ----------------------------------- I stand corrected then. All im saying is there is no definite design so it is open to everybody own assumptions... ----------------------------------- artuditu Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:08 pm ----------------------------------- Of course, there are 4 pages full of good theories here, I think this has been one of the best discussion threads since the crash ;) ----------------------------------- murphy38 Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:18 pm ----------------------------------- :lol: :lol: :lol: yes the Murphy's face is a big myster!!! :wink: ----------------------------------- * * * * * Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:19 pm ----------------------------------- Mayby it could be his Skull under the Face a Roboskull like in the Terminaator Movies. :?: ----------------------------------- Josh Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:44 pm ----------------------------------- Mayby it could be his Skull under the Face a Roboskull like in the Terminaator Movies. :?: That is one of the most common ideas... But noone really knows. I suppose Rob Bottin had his own ideas seeing as he designed Robo... ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:14 pm ----------------------------------- I want to solve at least a part of this discussion right now. "The Third Act" make-up shows us that Murphy's skull is at least in part mechanical. I say this only because of the jaw. Look closely at any picture of Murphy without the helmet. You'll see the jaw-hinges clearly stick out of the skin (synthetic or otherwise). Also that Murphy's jaw is more defined and a bit bulkier than when he was alive. So, it stands to say that at least Murphy's jaw is not bone. That being said, the rest of his skull would either have to be fitted to metal, or completely metal. The exit wound from Clarence's fatal shot blew the back of Murphy's skull completely apart Many theories can be proven, but this one seems to be the most logical. Murphy's jaw is metal. ----Sean ----------------------------------- Josh Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:28 pm ----------------------------------- From what you said, it also seems that the back of the head is metal to an extent, but may have his brain inside... ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:48 am ----------------------------------- Also that Murphy's jaw is more defined and a bit bulkier than when he was alive. So, it stands to say that at least Murphy's jaw is not bone. ahh well nice theory .. the bulkier jaw can to be also for the reason it is just Bottins make up :wink: I am of the peoples who say the skull is a bone ..the Murphys face is the same as he was alive .. and if it was a metal or something .. damn how is possible the skin is still alive and looks still good ?! just the Robocop head is the only one ( I can to say ) "living" things of the Murphy :wink: and yeah interesting why the Miller draw there the blood.. ----------------------------------- ngates87 Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:31 pm ----------------------------------- Well I think the head is almost all Murphy's(or at least i would like to think so). The only thing is when he is first created him they screw on his grid, which could lead to the possibility that his face is fake, but in RoboCop 2 he says this face is in Murphy's honor. I think if you watch RoboCop PM, the bullet hole is more defined, and almost gives you a sense that his head is more organic, but i just don't know, i like the idea that at least his head is human, and who knows maybe his waist up is human underneath, the lady at the beginning says that they saved the left arm and i really doubt that you would attach a living arm to to robotic body frame. Plus if you notice Murphy has a very human sounding voice towards the end of the first movie which would suggest that his human part is just suppressed under the robotic part. ----------------------------------- Josh Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:54 pm ----------------------------------- Thats a pretty good theory. I think he is mostly machine with murphy's old feelings and crap. The face could have been to honour him, or maybe in reality they wasnted a plot device so made him have a face, with no reasoning in the film... ----------------------------------- ngates87 Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:59 pm ----------------------------------- Thats a pretty good theory. I think he is mostly machine with murphy's old feelings and crap. The face could have been to honour him, or maybe in reality they wasnted a plot device so made him have a face, with no reasoning in the film... True it could just be a plot gap. Ive often wonder is they never mention if had an open or closed casket funeral, this could clear up a lot. ----------------------------------- ngates87 Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:02 pm ----------------------------------- The 1987 science fiction action film RoboCop features a cyborg protagonist. After being killed by a criminal gang, police officer Alex Murphy is transformed by a private company into a cyborg cop. Murphy's brain and face are preserved, but the rest of the body is replaced by machine parts. The transformation is used to explore the theme of reification and identity. There are cyborg kaiju in the Godzilla films such as Gigan and Mechagodzilla. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyborgs ----------------------------------- Josh Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:03 pm ----------------------------------- Remember, Wikipedia is written by anyone and cannot be proved without citidation... ----------------------------------- ngates87 Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:20 pm ----------------------------------- Remember, Wikipedia is written by anyone and cannot be proved without citidation...very true but i found it interesting ----------------------------------- SiR-ROUND Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:37 pm ----------------------------------- Indeed... ----------------------------------- ngates87 Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:54 pm ----------------------------------- any other thoughts, anyone?? ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:57 pm ----------------------------------- but hey now I remember also the sweet Dr Lazarus in Robocop 3 says .. " The tissue of his face and brain is still alive " ! oahh and it said a doctor :mrgreen: btw .. this is a neverending topic :wink: ----------------------------------- ngates87 Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:41 pm ----------------------------------- yea its really too bad we couldn't get a official word on this, so with that guys, keep an eye out when surfing RoboCop creator and director interviews and see if they hint anything towards that subject and post it here. Who knows maybe we will get really lucky and there will be a new RoboCop movie someday soon and they will say in that for sure. ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:53 pm ----------------------------------- Yes, let's hold our breath for another RoboCop movie. I know I am. The only thing I have to say about this topic is this. Murphy's humanity survived the transformation from human to machine. Murphy's story is not so different then that of Hamlet. Without the Incest (Hamlet raped his mother) and part where everyone dies at the end. The only thing that carried Murphy through his transformation was revenge, pity, and anger. Not to mention Lewis. If it wasn't for her, RoboCop would just be having recurring nightmares about death. As a writer and fan of Robo for many years, RoboCop's head is made up of these: -Original facial tissue from deceased Detroit Police Officer Alex James Murphy. -Remains of the cerebellum/cerebrum from deceased Detroit Police Officer Alex James Murphy. -Spinal cord from deceased Detroit Police Officer Alex James Murphy. -Basic skull shape reconstructed from mold of the original skull from deceased Detroit Police Officer Alex James Murphy. -internal fluid system leading from artifical heart in torso keeping brain alive and functional. -Brain electronics replacement for missing sections of cerebrum/cerebellum. -such operations of brain include: Infared vision, Grid scanner, Communications mobile uplink, enhanced 70GB RAM memory. -Enhanced outward senses include: sight 38-480mm with 20X zoom. Hearing designed by Beltone Hearing Labs with 800 MG of intensity. -Eyes replaced with artificial Optic sensors. -Outer cooling vents on rear side of cranium allow for proper ventilation of non-toxic gases omitted during REM sleep cycles. Also for use in providing the intake of Oxygen vital to the organic systems. -Internally oiled pistons to control: Neck and Jaw movement. -Outter fluid coils attached to edges and ports underneath of original facial tissue of deceased Detroit Police Officer Alex James Murphy. -Original vocal chords encased and enhanced in an artificial Larnyx. -Artificial dental work. -Artificial tongue for public relations. No current technology at present to manipulate said appendage. -Exo-skeletol structure made from same compound as the rest of subject: RoboCop; Titanium re-enforced with kevlar. All points of exo-skeletol skull are bulletproof. -Facial motors supplied to OCP by a Hollywood FX crew that remains nameless due to copyright infringment. These motors control basic facial movements including eyelids, nose, lips, brow, mouth, and cheeks. To give impression of muscles underneath the facial tissue. That's the order sheet that any engineer at OCP Security Concepts cyborg division would have supplied to them to accomplish a head. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Murphy's entire skull was replaced. But the boys at OCP did their homework. Hope that list explains alot. ----Sean ----------------------------------- Josh Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:00 am ----------------------------------- Now that is a theory! If anything, this seems the most feasable. Why would OCP leave the skull bone? It could easily get damaged. Sean, your the man! ----------------------------------- ngates87 Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:00 pm ----------------------------------- hmm definitely interesting, the would fall in place with robocop 2, when they just used Kains brian and spinal cord. Wait a minute, what about the fact that they say at the beginning that they saved the left arm, what would that be attacthed too, i doubt they would attach a living arm to a metallic Skeleton, so that must me that there is more of Murphy's torso then we orginally though, i willing to bet that almost everything from waist up is Murphy's and i bet they had a closed casket funeral for the family because there was nothing in there. Just some food for thought guys feel free to prove me wrong. ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:47 pm ----------------------------------- hmm definitely interesting, the would fall in place with robocop 2, when they just used Kains brian and spinal cord. Wait a minute, what about the fact that they say at the beginning that they saved the left arm, what would that be attacthed too, i doubt they would attach a living arm to a metallic Skeleton, so that must me that there is more of Murphy's torso then we orginally though, i willing to bet that almost everything from waist up is Murphy's and i bet they had a closed casket funeral for the family because there was nothing in there. Just some food for thought guys feel free to prove me wrong. As my previous comments above state, of which I only covered the head portion of RoboCop's body. It stands to reason that RoboCop's body is partially still human. Minus the skin. Repeated shotgun blasts to the body armor will eventually shred it. So, Murphy's torso would be badly damaged. All the original muscle mass, lungs, digestive tract, and heart would've been detrayed. "His digestive system is extremely simple..." as it was said. His human stonach being long gone, they replaced that with a processor that turns the "paste" into nutrients for the organics systems; ie, his skin, brain, and spinal cord. "I thought we agreed on Full-Body prosthesis..." Bob had said. Suggesting that Murphy's original design was flawed. He probably looked more like failed experiment #1 (from RoboCop 2). At least in the torso area. They most likely tried to use what was left of Murphy's body and turn it into the policeman of the future. "...Lose the arm." Bob didn't like the original design. Saw it's weaknesses and decided that repair costs would be too high. And the inevitable loss of that arm anyway. "Shut him down, prep him for surgery." This suggests that the design went back to the drawing board. Thus a new design came about. Bob Morton was pleased. This bring around the new RoboCop torso design: -Chest cavity replaced by a biomechanical skeletol structure that encases: -Artificial heart. which pumps the nutrients to the brain and organic tissue (skin) to keep it alive. -Artificial Lung, the intake valve is connected to the back portion of the exo-skeletol cranium. -Artificial stomach, which processes the "paste" into nutrients vital to sustain the living membranes of the brain and tissue. Waste is produced in a non-toxic gas form. Exit point: Ventilation at the rear side of exo-skeletol cranium. -exo-skeletol ribcage that holds all artificial organs in place. Complete with shock dampers. -Motor functions/servos that control flexibility of shoulders, ribs, mid-section, neck, and waist. -Hinge-joints for all points of articulation. -Fail-safe nucleur detenator. Classification: Top-Secret. Yield: Unknown. -All other features include: --Tracking device --cooling units --Communications battery pack --Oil pressure motors --Back-up battery producing 800 hours of life-support --Main Rechargeable battery with a shelf-life on 3 years, upgradable That's all just my assumption. Bob Morton was right. a flesh and blood appendage was a stupid idea. I'm sure that there could be more installed in the body of this cyborg, but I haven't got a clue. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. ----Sean ----------------------------------- Archive Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:01 pm ----------------------------------- I haven't followed the whole thread, but lately I've begun to think there are some plot holes with the whole head of Murphy thing in the Robo movies. Firstly, what Sean says makes sense, but if the whole skull is replaced, why save just the skin? I mean, they make a metal skull and then just put the whole skin on top of it? Why? Why not just make a metal head and loose the helmet. Why have it look like a dead police officer? He wears a helmet in public anyway. So saving the skin serves no purpose at all. Personally I'm going with the idea that it is Murphys whole skull with some metal here and there like the jaw for example. Anything else takes away the whole Frankenstein idea and turns it more into Terminator. My opinion of course. ----------------------------------- Burnout Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:22 pm ----------------------------------- I had always thought they kept the skin so regular people wouldent get freaked out by a metal death machine, instead its more identifiable to think its just a cop inside of a suit. ----------------------------------- ngates87 Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:26 pm ----------------------------------- Have you guys ever seen Star Trek First Contact, well you know the Brog Queen maybe RoboCop is something like that. (if you havent seen it just wikipedia it) ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:43 pm ----------------------------------- I like the Johans idea .. I always agreed with the idea that the Robocops head and skin is the only living rest of Murphy and if the skull was a metal what the his brain ?! hmm I doubt the brain or (rest ) of it can live inside a metal skull :roll: and also the Nahas book says .. it is the Murphys head just with some changes :wink: ----------------------------------- Archive Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:58 pm ----------------------------------- instead its more identifiable to think its just a cop inside of a suit. But that was never the point was it? From OCPs point of view anyway. It was always meant to be a product. A Robot cop, a machine. Really, saving the skin serves no point if the whole skull is replaced. Murphys face is never meant to be seen by anybody outside the OCP circle so saving the skin just to place it on a metal Terminator type skull makes no sense. ----------------------------------- artuditu Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:10 pm ----------------------------------- instead its more identifiable to think its just a cop inside of a suit. But that was never the point was it? From OCPs point of view anyway. It was always meant to be a product. A Robot cop, a machine. Really, saving the skin serves no point if the whole skull is replaced. Murphys face is never meant to be seen by anybody outside the OCP circle so saving the skin just to place it on a metal Terminator type skull makes no sense. I gave my opinion on this in the first pages, for me it's with no doubt for social purposes, as machines and robotic evolution tends since always to give a growing level of human interaction. Just think about the lady who Robo saves from being raped, how, completely shocked, she thanks him as if she felt he was or looked like human, now imagine that same scene with ED-209 instead of Robo... Here are my old posts about that matter: It may also be a pure marketing issue from the point of view of OCP, all kind of interactive machines have always tried to imitate human likeness and emotions (such as a human voice) to get a better reaction and empathy from the customer, a robot which "appears" to be human is a bit better for social purposes than an ed-209 that would scare you to death if you were someone innocent that needs help or something (for example the lady and the rapers). You also should all read this post moto1015 posted at the end of page 3, where it (presumably) states Rob Bottin's opinion: "The concept is that one of the only pieces left of Murphy, if not the only thing, is his face, which is actually placed on a robotic skull and used as a mask for the robot. The helmet goes over it and then the jaw piece.The public, or the people who created the robot in the movie, would think that it is a man in riot gear armor. When he removes his helmet, what you're supposed to see is that he's really an entire robot and they've just saved the man's face to give it a human aspect so it can deal with people and they won't be put off by the whole thing. In my mind it is flesh. They (the producers) thought it was such an outrageous idea they wanted me to come up with an idea for his face because it was a new angle. We've seen The Terminator where you see the guy get some of his flesh ripped off and you see a little bit of skull and he's got some shiny parts underneath. I thought 'oh I can't bring myself to do that again because I always like to do new things. But what could I do here that woud be totally different and make it interesting?' And what I thought of was the concept that this company wouldn't want to have the first robot in society be very impersonal and be a cop and be coming up to people and telling them what to do. So what they do is use a person's face, which is a leftover piece of a cop after he's been killed, to actually be sort of a cyborg to be able to relate to people. They wouldn't just think he's a machine. Murphy's brain is what operates the whole Robocop. It's actually very disgusting." and my opinion about it in page 4: As I presumed in the first page the human face was about giving a social image from the point of view of the OCP (independently of what we think there is behind the face). It's VERY logical, since no one seems to think that RoboCop may be a human person, we can see it in the news how people talk and treat him like a new toy, they doesn't seem to be bothered at all by his human face which may imply a human person was used for making it, people just act as he was a complete 100% robot with just a face-mouth that look human. Anyway I have to say I still would prefer the human skull idea, as the prototype in R2 when he goes crazy and takes his helmet off, but as we know, Robo's insides are entirely a great mistery (we could say the same of Terminator lack of muscles, organs and other tissues other than skin, the endoskeleton with just a skin wouldn't look human at all). ----------------------------------- Josh Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:47 pm ----------------------------------- Maybe they did it for plot reasons and thats it, with no real theories behind it. Lets face it, everybody wants to see under the mask/helmet (Robo, Darth Vader, Jason, Bobba/Jango Fett for example). ----------------------------------- ngates87 Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:27 pm ----------------------------------- well I'm kinda beginning to accept the fact make his head is mostly fake, They do say in RoboCop 2, "remove the robot parts and you wouldn't event be a corps, just a few chunks on the coroners table"(something like that) ----------------------------------- ibuybug Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:42 pm ----------------------------------- I used to think that only parts used from Alex Murphy were brains (whatever was left of them anyway) and the torso (at least the spinal cord and a few important organs for processing baby food into glucose for the brain). Now I would cut those inner organs out of my theory and just stick to the brains&spinal cord -combination (like in the case of Cain). Food was probably processed artificially. What if the brain was just an interface needed to connect the program (thinker) to the spinal cords nervous system (doer). Murphy lost inessential parts of the brain for the process to work and probably it resulted for him not going crazy like Cain did. About the face. My theory: the skin was turned into some kind of inorganic form and then planted on the artificial skull. Too much thoughts in my head. It's sauna time. ----------------------------------- artuditu Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:29 pm ----------------------------------- Murphy lost inessential parts of the brain for the process to work and probably it resulted for him not going crazy like Cain did. I don't think Cain went crazy at all, his personality just made him affront his new condition differently, and also he was very nuke-hungry, but other than that he wasn't more crazy that when he was "alive". Btw, talking about being "alive", now it just came to my mind that we could classify Robo (and maybe also RoboCain) as an "undead", just as a vampire would be... something weird I never have realized... ;P ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:53 pm ----------------------------------- Artuditu makes good points. GOOD JOB! As I've stated, RoboCop was built from a dead cop, and in doing so he's become less threatning. At least in terms of appearance to the general public. Good theory about that too. But it IS a bit of a mystery as to saving the entire face as oposed to just saving the bottom portion. I've always fantacized about a RoboCop sequel where they actually remove his face to get to the frontal lobe. As shown in the series, the back portions of the exo-skeletol cranium open up to show the back side of the brain. But still being attached to the spinal cord, the brain cannot be removed without completely disassembling the entire skull. What if they had to get to his frontal lobe for upgrades and such? His face would HAVE to be removable. That's where we get to see the answer to this mystrious question. What does the skull LOOK like under the face? Unfortunately, this has not happened. So this question is ALWAYS up for debate. But both order sheets (my posts on page 6) seem plausible, if not accurate for building RoboCop in the fashion hes designed. (Of course I would say that, I made the lists) Somebody call Rob Bottin and see if he likes the lists. ---Sean ----------------------------------- * * * * * Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:42 pm ----------------------------------- I disagree with the majority of posters in this thread. I believe that the majority of Murphy's internal organs are still his, as well as his face and portions of his skull. Here's why I hold that opinion: The human brain is not able to function without nutrients, oxygen, waste removal and other basic biological processes. All these processes strike me as being extremely advanced technology to duplicate because of the size of the items that are being dealt with (capilary blood vessels and molecules). Murphy needs lungs to get oxygen to his brain. It's easy to replace a limb. It's hard to replace a lung. Oxgen has to get into the bloodstream and carried by the red blood cells. The technology to reproduce this would be extrodinarily difficult to duplicate, not a high priority for science to pursue, and likely large and excessively expensive. Not to mention the lungs work just fine. Why go to all the trouble of replacing them? Murphy needs nutrients. They feed him paste equivalent to babyfood. It has to be digested and absorbed -- once again into the bloodstream. Similar arguments to the lungs, hard to duplicate, no reason for science to pursue it, why bother? Digestive system could be abbreviated but not easily replaced. He'll need a liver and at least some sort of lymphatic system as well, IMHO. No sense in blowing a wad of dough building robocop if he dies of pneumonia. So, IMO robocop's body is that of a quadruple amputee, with an exoskeleton type housing containing most of his major internal organs. You can replace the heart, I'm sure the reproductive organs got left on the gurney, and perhaps a few feet of intestines were left out, maybe the kidneys too, but at least in terms of the "near future" world that Robocop takes place in, my money is that he's got a good amount of guts left in him. The way that Cain is assembled as RoboCop 2 does not seem very convincing from a scientific perspective. A brain's gotta be fed, and as I've said, it's hard to feed one. Onto the head: First off, the obvious question "why bother to keep the face if it's a replacement?" There are opinions in this thread on it being a marketing decision, but I think the more likely answer is that it's easier to keep what worked. Murphy's face looks human. It moves in human ways. It appears to have a very complex set of movements that allow for facial gestures and speaking. To replace Murphy's face with an artificial one means that OCP would have to create an entirely artificial face and musculature underneath it and then program create programming that would allow Murphy's brain to: a) convert thoughts into verbal statements b) coordinate artificial facial movements to accompany it. Once again, like in my arguments against the internal organ replacement, these are extreme steps to go through and what would be the advantage? More cost, more programming, longer installation, more research... for what? And to go through all that just to slap an artificial face on top of it that looks exactly like the one that was originally there, bullet scar and all seems the most excessive and pointless exercise imaginable. If they were going to go to the extremes of replacing all that and then leaving a human looking appearance, don't you think they'd want something more aesthetically pleasing? Further, if it is all replacement why stick a helmet or jaw covering over it for protection? Robocop's face looks like Murphy's face because it is Murphy's face. It has some reinforcment behind it undoubtedly, the eyes may or may not have been replaced, I can see arguments for both sides on that. But it makes no sense to replace items that don't need replacement. OCP being a business I'm certain would focus on that. Robocop is Alex Murpy's head (minus portions of skull) spinal column, and most internal organs, possibly the majority of his torso and neck. ----------------------------------- artuditu Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:32 am ----------------------------------- Nice opinions, though we should not forget RoboCop is not a hard sci-fi movie. A highly scientific approach is nice to discuss, but, as all the other explanations, that doesn't mean it's what the creators had in mind, nor they had all the amount of info we discuss. Anyway there is also the debate that his entire brain is there, we don't know. What we know is that he has a digective system to feed his organic parts, though we don't know much of how it works, and what organic parts are those. The way that Cain is assembled as RoboCop 2 does not seem very convincing from a scientific perspective. A brain's gotta be fed, and as I've said, it's hard to feed one. Well, when Robo takes it out it seems it has a special designed recipient, with liquid in it, among other possible explanations. And to go through all that just to slap an artificial face on top of it that looks exactly like the one that was originally there, bullet scar and all seems the most excessive and pointless exercise imaginable. If they were going to go to the extremes of replacing all that and then leaving a human looking appearance, don't you think they'd want something more aesthetically pleasing? I don't agree there, the idea was that murphy's face without his helmet would never be seen in public, just his mouth. Robocop is Alex Murpy's head (minus portions of skull) spinal column, and most internal organs, possibly the majority of his torso and neck. That was my opinion since always, until I read that (presumably) explanation by Rob Bottin himself, moto1015 posted and I've quoted in my last post. Anyway it brings me again to the "we saved his left arm" discussion... why in the hell, if he was completely mechanic could they even think of leting his left arm there? That would be non sense, and your theory gets a strong point there. Problem is RoboCop 2, when they dismember him we can see his stomach insides, which is completely mecanic. So if there is anything organic it must be all in the chest. But as always happens in these kind of franchise, there can be inconsistencies (e.g. Predator having a different vision without helmet in Predator 1 and 2; or Alien 1 deleted scenes putting down the beehive-termite colony theory of AlienS). Anyway, weren't there other threads to discuss logic about RoboCop body? Because this thread is more focused on his face-skull. In conclusion, I would personally say "enhanced dead body" was the idea I always had, to me is more conventional and easy to accept. The only brain theory is much less conventional, it's more disgusting, and more transgressor (which in part seduces me). Though I thought it would also make it more logical, because the more Robo had organic parts, the more difficult I found interaction between machine and human parts. But if ASFryan says it's scientifically more logical the mixed mechanic-organic body, then that's interesting. But the only brain theory makes Murphy less human, less murphy, less robocop... I know film is about soul over body, so I should not care if there is only his brain left of him. But with that explanation there is little link with his actual RoboCop body, he could be rebuilt from zero into any form... that gives him less personality as a character. ----------------------------------- Cain Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:17 am ----------------------------------- Well robo's face is actually in the film flesh and blood he is the remains of Murphy. ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:29 am ----------------------------------- hey thanks was very very good ASFRyan ( who is the new member ? a Neumeier ?) :mrgreen: Well robo's face is actually in the film flesh and blood he is the remains of Murphy. right ..and as I remember something alike said also the Dr Faxx in the R2 :wink: ----------------------------------- RoBoToOnZ Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:44 pm ----------------------------------- In Robocop2: Robocop says to his wife: "Touch this" Refering to his face,so she touches his face an says "Its cold" Robo then replies back with "They made this, to honour him...you husband is dead I don't know you" His face was used to show honour. To represent OCP and to show that with Murphy being a good cop that he was his face was a representation. Just like you see on mney - old presedents ect. Just my idea... Bri :wink: ----------------------------------- ngates87 Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:01 am ----------------------------------- In Robocop2: Robocop says to his wife: "Touch this" Referring to his face,so she touches his face an says "Its cold" Robo then replies back with "They made this, to honor him...you husband is dead I don't know you" His face was used to show honor. To represent OCP and to show that with Murphy being a good cop that he was his face was a representation. Just like you see on money - old precedents etc. Just my idea... Bri :wink:You know i thought about that too and you make a very good and valid point, but sometimes I wonder if he was trying to let her down easy, and spare her some pain of the possibility that her husband exist in some form. ----------------------------------- SiR-ROUND Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:42 am ----------------------------------- With "this" he's not particularly referring to his face you know... ----------------------------------- ngates87 Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:01 pm ----------------------------------- true ----------------------------------- Cain Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:34 pm ----------------------------------- Yeh he is refering to himself as a whole being not just his face. ----------------------------------- Mephisto Tue May 01, 2007 4:13 pm ----------------------------------- I must say I read and enjoyed this entire topic. This is what I was missing around here...interesting, intelligent topics. Reading this influenced me to come back to the board. Great ideas folks. :wink: ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Tue May 01, 2007 5:15 pm ----------------------------------- Yes, I see you've been clicking around here. Welcome back. Wonder if my posts had anything to do with it? ----Sean ----------------------------------- * * * * * Tue May 01, 2007 5:18 pm ----------------------------------- Well, when Robo takes it out it seems it has a special designed recipient, with liquid in it, among other possible explanations. As I've said in my first post, there's no easy way to simulate the complexities of the functions necessary to keep a brain alive. The scientific jump between Robocop and Robocop 2's plausibility is a giant one. The recipient in question would have to have a way of transferring oxygenated blood and materials into the blood vessels of the brain as well as remove CO2 and wastes. These are complex activities done on a cellular level that require millions of years of evolution or a massive build up of technology, technology that wouldn't exist in a world where internal combusion engines are still used for transportation. I agree with you that the writers may not have been going for a hard science fiction story, but Murphy's transformation is within possiblities, at least physically. The mental/computer interface is difficult to imagine -- directives and programming. I don't agree there, the idea was that murphy's face without his helmet would never be seen in public, just his mouth. a) Why a face at all? Why add excessive complexity when not necessary? What is the return on investment? b) Why Murphy's face? He wasn't a great looking guy to begin with, why copy his? Pick a face with greater public appeal. c) Why Murphy's face in that condition? Scars? If they're going to copy his face, why keep the bullethole from when he was killed? None of these questions make it seem logical that they would create an artificial exact replica of Murphy's face. It makes it seem that the most likely answer is that it is Murphy's actual face. That was my opinion since always, until I read that (presumably) explanation by Rob Bottin himself, moto1015 posted and I've quoted in my last post. Anyway it brings me again to the "we saved his left arm" discussion... why in the hell, if he was completely mechanic could they even think of leting his left arm there? That would be non sense, and your theory gets a strong point there. Yeah, I was close to including that quote but my post was already waaay too long. Problem is RoboCop 2, when they dismember him we can see his stomach insides, which is completely mecanic. So if there is anything organic it must be all in the chest. But as always happens in these kind of franchise, there can be inconsistencies (e.g. Predator having a different vision without helmet in Predator 1 and 2; or Alien 1 deleted scenes putting down the beehive-termite colony theory of AlienS). The Robocop ouvre is clearly constructed by a lot of different minds, I am basing most of my opinions on the first film, I think that the subsequent writers took a great deal of liberty with the original film's setting and characters. I think it is possible that they could've relocated all of his internal organs necessary for continued existence into his chest cavity, but I suspect it was simply the directors of Robocop 2 choosing to place the artistic direction of a heavily dismantled Robocop as a priority over plausible construction. Anyway, weren't there other threads to discuss logic about RoboCop body? Because this thread is more focused on his face-skull. The two are related though, that's the reason I broadened the subject. The only brain theory is much less conventional, it's more disgusting, and more transgressor (which in part seduces me). Though I thought it would also make it more logical, because the more Robo had organic parts, the more difficult I found interaction between machine and human parts. But if ASFryan says it's scientifically more logical the mixed mechanic-organic body, then that's interesting. It's more like creating a hybrid. Keeping the brain alive is the organic side, the cybernetic side is involved in strength and defenses. Think of Murphy's basic organs and face as the pilot of his battleship. But the only brain theory makes Murphy less human, less murphy, less robocop... I know film is about soul over body, so I should not care if there is only his brain left of him. But with that explanation there is little link with his actual RoboCop body, he could be rebuilt from zero into any form... that gives him less personality as a character. Yeah, I also think it's easier to convey that struggle with flesh and machine when you actually see the flesh of his face. You see it as the last element of humanity. Just a brain is harder to identify with. ----------------------------------- ngates87 Tue May 01, 2007 8:50 pm ----------------------------------- you i think the writers and directors want you to think the top half is human, and the rest is machine, simply for the fact that the average viewer would pick up on anything else other then that, and besides if his head is mostly machine the writers would have made reference to it in the movie, we would know, think perhaps we are reading too much into it. ----------------------------------- Josh Tue May 01, 2007 9:30 pm ----------------------------------- Truth is, there is never going to bew a definite answer to this. The closest we would ever get is directly from Bottin but he only designed the parts we were ment to see. No matter what happens or whatever official explanation is given, people will always dissagree, mainly about the skull in my opinion... ----------------------------------- ngates87 Tue May 01, 2007 10:56 pm ----------------------------------- [quote="RoboDuck"]Truth is, there is never going to be a definite answer to this. The closest we would ever get is directly from Bottin but he only designed the parts we were ment to see. No matter what happens or whatever official explanation is given, people will always dissagree, mainly about the skull in my opinion...[/quote veru true ----------------------------------- * * * * * Tue May 01, 2007 11:14 pm ----------------------------------- Truth is, there is never going to bew a definite answer to this. The closest we would ever get is directly from Bottin but he only designed the parts we were ment to see. No matter what happens or whatever official explanation is given, people will always dissagree, mainly about the skull in my opinion... Yes, but there are answers that are more logical and stay within of the confines and scope of the films than others. We could make the argument that Murphy's head is a construct of mashed potatoes and by your logic it would be just as good an answer. There's possible and there's probable. I tend to think that probability dictates it's his face with some reinforcement. ----------------------------------- RoboKasper Wed May 02, 2007 7:23 pm ----------------------------------- Hmm... This is a though one, I personally think that his face is mainly human, because he's got teeth. If they where to a robotic face and just sort of put his skin on, to make him look more human, why would they have his teeth there?.. It's not like his smiling all the time, so people wouldn't notice if he didn't have them... just my 2 cents ;) ----------------------------------- Cain Thu May 03, 2007 12:09 pm ----------------------------------- That is quite true m8 if he was all machine like the so called lawyer Shister insisted then why does he have his own teeth? ----------------------------------- Kevlar Antelope Sat May 05, 2007 12:51 am ----------------------------------- you i think the writers and directors want you to think the top half is human, and the rest is machine, simply for the fact that the average viewer would pick up on anything else other then that, and besides if his head is mostly machine the writers would have made reference to it in the movie, we would know, think perhaps we are reading too much into it. Agreed. He's a cyborg not a robot, so he's half man, half machine. I can think of two simple reasons to show the face: 1.So the audience can relate to him better. 2.It just looks cool. ----------------------------------- BioHazard064 Thu May 31, 2007 9:31 pm ----------------------------------- This topic has been a fun read. Heres my two cents. If it's been said or not, oh well. Why have a human face/teeth/etc instead of a metal one? To add on the idea that it would make Robocop more human, heres my idea. Maybe they were exploiting something that was already in the physical features of Murphy. It's obvious they have the technology to replicate speech but maybe they could only make it like ED-209's voice, so they needed the vocal cords, and other things that creates human speech and therefore give Robocop a more human sound. The same idea goes with the human brain. Maybe it could obviously perceive when a threat has been neutralized a whole lot better than whatever they could program at the time (the old man must have seen whatever ED-209 predecessors were and not have been terribly shocked when ED-209 'glitched'). Of course the side effects of using human parts is eventually the brain started to override the programming. Perhaps they strengthened the programming in the second movie to make him return to his normal state. Perhaps Murphy, seeing as he had his revenge, decided to relax his control on the program. Can Robocop bleed, cry, and such? I say so. Blood would probably be minimal because I say the organity of Robocop only extends to what keeps the organic parts alive. (another note: Perhaps Murphy's skin was treated to be fire resistant or something, but I say it's up to each Robocop fan to be able to consider what they think is canon and what is not. So if you want to not include Robocop 3 or whatever, I'm not going to argue with you on that). Maybe how Robocop eats and such relates to Fortress where what Robocop takes in is completely used up, nothing wasted. The paste Robocop eats could also be more highly developed to assist in the "everything is used, nothing wasted". The paste is obviously edible to humans. When in absolute need, Robocop could use baby food instead, but when it comes down to what would be more efficient, it's the paste that is similar to baby food but is specifically developed for Robocop. One thing that differs between Terminator and Robocop is humanity. Robocop can cry because it's apart of human emotions. His humanity overrides the programming at times. However Terminator is a robot with a program. They aren't human at all. They can mimic and understand emotions, but they can never do them. They don't feel pain. The flesh on their bodies is simply to blend in a human world. Perhaps time travel technology was limited even in 2029 or whatever because of the so few terminators and one human sent back. If they really had so advanced technology, they could of warped them selves to the 1700s or earlier and killed humanity off before it had a chance to develop weapons that could disable Terminators. Also unlike Robocop, they have an even more advanced processor and such that does not need a human brain to carry out processes more effectively. ----------------------------------- Cain Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:38 pm ----------------------------------- Aslo he has his own emotions which are human as well. :wink: ----------------------------------- Sgt. Reed Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:26 pm ----------------------------------- I think that it's Murphys skull but only half of it (the front half). His eyes are bionic or whatever (the LCD) but the rest is original flesh and bones. I presume they did'nt have the technology to just remove the skin and then replace it on a metallic surface safely. My main point is that they couldnt remove the brains entirely out of the skull without damaging them(or the eyes at least) so they kept the original face. ----------------------------------- Bambi Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:12 pm ----------------------------------- I'd say his eyes are bionic, since the quote in RoboCop 2 when Lewis says "Good eyes Murphy" then Murphy replies "as good as money can buy". ----------------------------------- Sgt. Reed Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:59 pm ----------------------------------- Yeah I think so too. What's your opinion on the rest of the face, Bambi? ----------------------------------- Bambi Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:14 pm ----------------------------------- It's difficult to say. The bullethole would suggest that part of the face is Murphy's original face, maybe they skin graphed parts of the face that were even worse damaged by the gunshots. But kept everything they could such as the bullet hole. I'd say the chin is bionic and the skin on the chin is fake. ----------------------------------- Sgt. Reed Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:37 am ----------------------------------- But if he has teeth the chin cant be fake. Plus he has the chinguard! If he had a fake chin, there wouldn't be a need for that. Okay, it protects the neck and the sides of the face but it could have been made in a different shape if it wasn't necessary to shield the chin. So I still say it's only the eyes that have been modified, from the front half I mean. :huhwhat: ----------------------------------- Bambi Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:44 pm ----------------------------------- The back of the jaw is definately bionic I would say. You're likely right with the chin, because of the chin guard...didn't think of that lol. ----------------------------------- Sgt. Reed Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:59 pm ----------------------------------- LoL yeah the back of the jaw, where it connects to the back of the skull yeah that artificial. ----------------------------------- tsu Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:10 pm ----------------------------------- I'm really wondering about one thing - in one of Robocop comics, Avatar's, if I'm not mistaken, Murphy has a saliva in his mouth. I do not know about the reason they did this, but even if it's only their own vision of Robo, it must have any explaination. Saliva, as everybody know, is produced by 3 main pairs of salivary glands and its exudation depends on stimulus influence on an organism. Hell yeah - organism. So, how can you explain this? I don't think they wanted to make different Robocop than Verhoeven. PS. As somebody said - Robocop has not the eyebrows because of the fires etc.; ok, but he has the eyelashes, so... PSII. Robo has the same texture of skin as he had when he was a human being - so awesome technology of OCP or maybe really his own tissues? Somebody has mentioned that living tissue cannot be held on a steel shell/body - perhaps it may depends on electromagnetic fields and their influence on living organism? Maybe in Robocop's body, as he is part of machine, is a lot of small mechanisms that generate electromagnetic fields stimulating life of living cells? Who knows. We can only "spread" conjectures. ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:19 pm ----------------------------------- Hmmmmm very interesting. ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:58 pm ----------------------------------- think that it's Murphys skull but only half of it (the front half). His eyes are bionic or whatever (the LCD) but the rest is original flesh and bones. yeah agree ! Damn why almost all say something other ?! :| ahh and for the who still have some doubts pls buy the novel by Naha i think there is good explanation.. ahh and yeah nice thoughts Tsu ou if of course the boys will take the Sulivans comic into the regular robocop story ( btw girl welcome here ) good now I feel bigger power :mrgreen: ----------------------------------- Sgt. Reed Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:16 am ----------------------------------- Saliva, as everybody know, is produced by 3 main pairs of salivary glands and its exudation depends on stimulus influence on an organism. Hell yeah - organism. Actually, I didn't know that.. :lol: But you've got a point. Welcome on board, tsu! :mrgreen: ----------------------------------- Robowreck Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:02 am ----------------------------------- i think the face was grafted over the metal skull, his eyes are his actual eyes, the inside of his mouth is his, gums teeth, brain spinal cord, all his... #2, *wife* its cold! they made this to honor him..... Anyways thats my stance on it, why else would they have even bothered to keep his body in the surgical scenes in 1? we saved the left arm* prep him for surgery! *he signed the forms, we can pretty much do what we want to HIM* ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:34 am ----------------------------------- RC3 mentioned that Murphy's face was his own. The original script for RC1 also mentioned his cheek getting cut and bleeding. The bone structure underneath is metal, as can be seen by the jaw sticking out, the metal plug in the gunshot wound, and the metal seen underneath the skin at the top. His vocal cords are electronic (aside from the way he sounds, you can see the voice box right there on his throat) as are his eyes, since he has targeting, etc. when he removes his helmet in RC1. Roosevelt also mentions that the "rudimentary paste" supports his organic systems, implying that more than his brain is being utilized. Not to mention on the 20th Anniv. DVD they specifically say that it's his face, and it's there to prevent the subconscious part of his mind (that still has memories of being human) from breaking down and going psychotic. ;) The teeth? I see no reason why they wouldn't be part of the artificial skull. With his electronic voice box he has no reason for a tongue. Um... was there anything else that was brought up? ----------------------------------- Kevlar Antelope Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:51 am ----------------------------------- RC3 mentioned that Murphy's face was his own. The original script for RC1 also mentioned his cheek getting cut and bleeding. The bone structure underneath is metal, as can be seen by the jaw sticking out, the metal plug in the gunshot wound, and the metal seen underneath the skin at the top. His vocal cords are electronic (aside from the way he sounds, you can see the voice box right there on his throat) as are his eyes, since he has targeting, etc. when he removes his helmet in RC1. Roosevelt also mentions that the "rudimentary paste" supports his organic systems, implying that more than his brain is being utilized. Not to mention on the 20th Anniv. DVD they specifically say that it's his face, and it's there to prevent the subconscious part of his mind (that still has memories of being human) from breaking down and going psychotic. ;) The teeth? I see no reason why they wouldn't be part of the artificial skull. With his electronic voice box he has no reason for a tongue. Um... was there anything else that was brought up? Wouldn't the tongue help him eat the paste though? and help him sound out words even though his voice box is electronic...you still need your tongue to talk. ----------------------------------- RoboSteve Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:40 pm ----------------------------------- Sorry to bump this topic up but I've been reading through all the questions and answers laid down in this thread with wonder. I think the greatest subject in any Robo movie or show is the sometimes awkard, and sometimes delicate juxtaposition of the mechanical and the organical. The most fascinating part of Robocp 1 was watching Murphy take his helmet off in front of Lewis, he tells her she may not like what she is going to see, but we don't even know if Murhpy has seen his new face before this instance. Rob Bottin's third-act makeup is stunning, and around the sides of Murphy's face, you can see where flesh has cruelly met metal, making the viewer come to terms with what price Murphy has paid in this deal. I'd like to believe that all of the front part of the face until it reaches the metal towards the back-end is all Murhpy's untouched, but we know he has computer aided vision, and the Robo creation team screwed down the grid for this, so elements of his eyes, despite them still looking human like will be prosthetic. Very little organics are left untouched, replaced by mechanical equivalents, the skull ideally would be metal as most of it would have been ruined by Boddiker's final shot, so perhaps the preserved skin and the brain/spinal column is all that is left. Although very nerdy, I do find this all very intersting, and have loved reading through this thread and hearing all your views on this. :) ----------------------------------- Kevlar Antelope Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:18 am ----------------------------------- As a child and growing up I always thought that his head, heck, and upper torso were all his and the rest was metal. We know his brain is his as is his face, but what else will always be speculation. I mean the line in the film where they say the paste will sustain his organic side was very puzzling because then he would need to have a stomach to eat and have a way to convert this to sustain his organic parts and tissue....But not sure... I always found this picture interesting: http://www.robocoparchive.com/info/blueprint3.jpg ----------------------------------- Xeno Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:47 pm ----------------------------------- I always thought and still do that face tissue is the only organic (but the brain and spine) thing in his face. Why should they use bone? It will make him weaker at the face area. ----------------------------------- WheelBenT Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:56 pm ----------------------------------- [url=http://www.gizmag.com/ninian-peckitt-engineering-assisted-surgery-facial-reconstruction/10953/]Rebuilding the face The above article over at gizmag may be of interest in regards to this discussion. ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:06 pm ----------------------------------- It's pretty simple. Remember Kain's brain, eyes, and spine in a tank in R2. Well take some of that brain tissue away and there is our beloved murphy. Don't really think that this entire concept was really, really thought out when they did the movie, like exact skull structure, how it all exactly worked, It worked that's all they knew. I mean we are talking about some advanced technology that doesn't exist. It's pretty much left up to our imagination. ----------------------------------- Deus Ex Robo Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:05 am ----------------------------------- I think to keep this topic from being redundant we should decide what we are taking canon from. I'd like to assume that we all agree that any type of comic, novel, TV series/cartoon, or other such publication outside the films are just third party speculation. But that leaves the problem of which film we take facts or lines of dialogue from. Of course R1 is the staple of this conversation. But what about R2 and R3? R2 had enough composure and maturity to still be considered a sequel and expansion on the mythology of Robo, therefore it's use in this discussion. While R3 was just a churned out project to make money and sell toys to kids at the expense of a great character and fictionalized universe. So it's validity in this conversation is next to nothing. And I'd like to think everyone agrees with that. With the exception of a few R3 fans here on the forum. But maybe we should even consider separating R1 and R2 into separate alternate universes in regards to Robo's internal make up/construction. Reason being is that I've read so many good thoughts and educated guesses in this thread that support the idea of Robo having his original skull and face (which I don't even agree with). And then that solid idea is flipped on it's ass when someone quotes a specific line from R2. Such as: "That can't be his original skin because in the second film Mrs. Murphy touches his face and she says that 'it's cold'. And if it's cold that means no blood flow which indicates fake skin." And then we're left burying great ideas that made perfect sense before. Do you think that Frank Miller and the subsequent people who butchered his script/ideas actually gave as much thought to Robo's internal make up as we have here in this one thread? I for one, think not. What I'm trying to say is that between the first two films there is enough contradictory evidence to keep this discussion going in circles forever. So maybe we should find the best ideas for each film first before looking at them as a whole? Just a suggestion. Maybe even drawing up some of our own organ/bio-mechanical diagrams. Who better to make them than us? Lets try to actually bring something to light that at least for us, makes as much sense as it can. Or is that too far even for RoboCop fans?:wink: My two cents. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:09 pm ----------------------------------- Maybe even drawing up some of our own organ/bio-mechanical diagrams. Who better to make them than us? Lets try to actually bring something to light that at least for us, makes as much sense as it can. Or is that too far even for RoboCop fans?:wink: Bah, that's too much work for me. :b ----------------------------------- Robocop_Unit_1983 Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:58 am ----------------------------------- Kain's brain, eyes, and spine in a tank in R2. Who the fuck is Kain?! I don't remember seeing anyone named Kain in Robocop 2.... I remember a Hob, Angie, a Mayor Kuzak, an officer Duffy, and OH YES, some addict hippie druglord who thought himself as Jesus whose name was "Cain" with a C, and who really was supposed to be this "Nazi" styled psychotic rehab soldier named Kong, but disappeared out of existence from Miller's original draft because the Orion staff thought it was unfilmable, therefore they came up with Cain... Or you could have seen the forbidden Korean bootleg of Robocop 2 that a banned member known as TUW so much talked about... But yes, I don't remember seeing any names with a K besides Kuzak (unless it was their real name) Better to be pedantic than to not know... ----------------------------------- Deus Ex Robo Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:07 am ----------------------------------- RoboDemise = Robowned. ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:26 am ----------------------------------- I think I would refer to myself as a pedant, rather than describe my actions as pedantic, but maybe I'm just acting pedantically. You may want to scour back through my posts, I may have put an E in murphy's name at some point, then you would be able to to contribute in a conversation again. Look forward to more of your thought provoking input in the near future. ----------------------------------- Robocop_Unit_1983 Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:46 am ----------------------------------- Anytime there sport, its just that so many folks don't pay attention to grammar anymore, sometimes drives a fella bonkers... After all, accuracy does make one's credibility increase... Anywho, since mentioning brains, armor and tanks, Murphy's design is unique and unmatchable, so unmatchable that no other prototype came close to replacing it, and I mean no other prototype because the Cain MK II had it's design flaws. One design flaw is the nuke port, because all it takes is a precise missile hit loaded with a light hydrogen charge to that port in order to blow up the upper half. Another flaw is the monitor, assuming that the head contains optical cameras or lenses which allow for vision, as this could render him blind. But I think Robocain is a strong design that even a T-800 couldn't take down by itself without getting it's head crushed or cut by Cain's plasma cutter (not welder). Only a Robocop with a weapon arm could manage to accomplish such a feat, given Cain doesn't close the nuke port on time. Anyhow, there's my share of thought provoking material... ----------------------------------- serenitysfall Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:19 am his face and hemlet ----------------------------------- so i have a question sort of related to his face. in the end of the movie were he reveals himself lewis he takes of his robcop helmet but did you ever notice how the black bottom part that is to his jaw u dont see it removed with the helmet did you ever notice that? lol but i would say the parts of his face are him and some arent ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:28 pm Re: his face and hemlet ----------------------------------- so i have a question sort of related to his face. in the end of the movie were he reveals himself lewis he takes of his robcop helmet but did you ever notice how the black bottom part that is to his jaw u dont see it removed with the helmet did you ever notice that? lol Really?? Naw, never. :b ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:17 am ----------------------------------- He doesn't take off his helmet at the end of 2, he just ratchets on the bolt and says, we're only human. Unless you are talking about in 1, I'll have to check the 1st one out again and see. ----------------------------------- Archive Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:35 am Re: his face and hemlet ----------------------------------- so i have a question sort of related to his face. in the end of the movie were he reveals himself lewis he takes of his robcop helmet but did you ever notice how the black bottom part that is to his jaw u dont see it removed with the helmet did you ever notice that? lol That is explained in a deleted scene where Robo gives the chinguard to Lewis in a powerful musical number. ----------------------------------- serenitysfall Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:48 pm ----------------------------------- yes i meant in the first movie were he takes the helmet off and u see the back off his skull and his face and were did the black jaw holder go? always wanted to know ----------------------------------- Mephisto Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:24 am ----------------------------------- yes i meant in the first movie were he takes the helmet off and u see the back off his skull and his face and were did the black jaw holder go? always wanted to know It fell into a plot hole. Those things are dangerous, and always seem to pop up from time to time in films. There ought to be a law against them. ----------------------------------- ForgottenPatriot Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:26 am ----------------------------------- yes i meant in the first movie were he takes the helmet off and u see the back off his skull and his face and were did the black jaw holder go? always wanted to know I guess Paul didn't think we'd notice ----------------------------------- j.p.keleman Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:11 am ----------------------------------- I think that Robocop's face was Murphy's real face. In fact I will go as far to say a lot of his skull remained. I think that the eyes are his as well. In the intro of the classic Robocop 1 movie we last see Murphy's eyes when he passes away; next time he is represented as human is in the battle with ED-209. What I mean is that the cracked visor shows a human eye that looks up to the camera and shows emotion; at this point we know he is human like us. The way he could see night vision, infrared, and zoom in could be an advanced electronics system that can interpret all data presented to the human eye better then we can. Robocop's rear of his jaw is probably artificial like in the schematics but some of Murphy's jaw could be fused in the metal component to add a real look to his face and why bother with a complicated artificial jaw that would probably not look right? Now the famous question of bullets hitting his face! I have explained it to myself in a interesting fashion. The area around Murphy's mouth in particular and perhaps some what his whole skull is encased with some sort of slight electromagnetic field that can deflect projectiles. I mean the area around his mouth is so small that a energy could be concentrated. Perhaps it can even cause a slight change in near by air pressure and charge that could help slow the heat waves from fires to burn his face; convection and radiation, yet in any event I thought the fires were nowhere near as dangerous to really burn him. The fact his face is cold does not mean it is a plastic piece. I know that there are days were we all feel cold and I am sure OCP wanted a hardy cyborg that could keep its flesh at a cool energy conserving and flesh preserving temperature. Find out what is the lowest temperature skin can survive at and I am sure that is what temperature Murphy's wife noticed. I mean Robocop has organics but they are dead and probably due to that fact they have some new rule changes. I would also like to comment on the quote that, "They made this to honor him," was referring to yeah the Robocop program itself but the obvious face and flesh of Murphy was used and paraded around on a symbol of law and justice. There is a lot of human in Robocop why else would we all care so much about the movie? ----------------------------------- Archive Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:08 am ----------------------------------- I recommend anyone who hasn't seen the new DVD documentaries to watch this little clip. It deals with the whole Murphy's face thing and explains some questions and clears some confusion about it. The face part is at about 5:10 in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHpe13EPBjI ----------------------------------- Law Giver Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:38 pm ----------------------------------- Yeah cool Archive. I liked all their conflict and discrepancy with the hours of getting Weller into the suit, was funny. The Murphy face being transplanted I think we all knew. One thing which wouldve been nice if they showed the skull or maybe if it was a endoskeleton like set up underneath. Because the flesh alone would not retain the structure and integrity of Murphy without something underneath. ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:47 pm ----------------------------------- So that would mean that they took his skull and made a mold of it and then made a new facial structure to make the skin, or his face, look like it did. Or I guess they could have 3D scanned the skull facial structure and made it that way somehow..... Pretty interesting indeed! ----------------------------------- Deus Ex Robo Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:39 am ----------------------------------- You still haven't gotten that 20th anniversary DVD yet have you? ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:01 am ----------------------------------- Fuck no I haven't. Sucks, but I will. It's not a question of if, but when. ----------------------------------- OneTimePoster Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:44 am ----------------------------------- Yeah, i've never posted here before, and i honestly doubt i'll return. I never really commit to any board... I notice the last post was last summer, so sorry if i resurected a dead topic. But i just read all 12 or so pages of this conversation, and its very interesting. I think just about every post contributed nicely. I'll add for one that i believe murphy's only 'human parts' are his facial tissue (all of it), some of his brain, and possibly his spine (just because it sounds good) I think the rest is plastic, metal, and wires. Some of you believe that his left arm is still intact. If you re-watch the movie, the final word on the arm was 'lose the arm'. Some of you also believe it to be impossible for his digestion system, heart, basicly his torso-contents to be synthetic. That leads me to the reason why i registered to make this post. (drum roll?) During the first third of the original robocop movie, during one of those commercial break segments, theres a commercial advertising synthetic plastic hearts for transplantion purposes ("kawasaki... you pick the heart!") proving that withinn the cannon of the movie, such things are quite possible. I believe that may of been the sole purpose of the commercial. I think OCP was even mentioned withinn it. An alternative (fantasy) thought i once had was based on a concept unused in the original Terminator movie. In the first draft, the terminator had to eat to maintain its organic tissue. It had rat-sized organs located in its jaw/chin area. And since i brought the terminator into the conversation, i do think the t-800 (in T1 and T2) had a superior build and design. Just thought i'd add that, though i think the youtube link tpretty much said it all. Thanks for the great read guys. Heres to hoping Robocop 4 doesnt turn out to be CG, but if it does, atleast they may be able to secure Peter Weller for the voice-over work. :) ----------------------------------- Deus Ex Robo Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:13 am ----------------------------------- Um okay..................lets hear it for the new guy! ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:58 pm ----------------------------------- Not bad for only the one post. :wink: ----------------------------------- OneTimePoster Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:12 am ----------------------------------- lol thank you, thank you. i've prolly over the past 5 years or so used this site as reference for robocop information but i never even noticed there was a message board section... anyway, cheers guys. again, sorry for bringing an old thread to the top. i'll cease and desist. ----------------------------------- LuanaTF Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:27 am ----------------------------------- Oh it's okay about the bringing up old threads I think ^^ I do it all the time! Also, good to see your 2nd post on the board :D ----------------------------------- Deus Ex Robo Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:55 pm ----------------------------------- lol thank you, thank you. i've prolly over the past 5 years or so used this site as reference for robocop information but i never even noticed there was a message board section... anyway, cheers guys. again, sorry for bringing an old thread to the top. i'll cease and desist. Aw shit, well now you ruined it. The whole mystique of your screen name blown. +2 posts? Fuckin sellout. ----------------------------------- OneTimePoster Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:09 am ----------------------------------- HaHa i guess the helmets off the cyborg now, eh... anyway, since this is my third day checking back on this thread, perhaps i will hang out and check out the other ones. Must say, this board is more active than i assumed it would be... ----------------------------------- Law Giver Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:45 pm ----------------------------------- One thing I never understood, if they agreed on TOTAL body prosthesis, why keep the face? Maybe ol Bob snorted some funky shit and didnt consider the face to be part've the body when he was on his withdrawal rant over the arm issue. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:56 pm ----------------------------------- It's been mentioned on the DVDs that the logic of keeping Murphy's face was so that the subconscious part of the human brain operating the system (which would always instinctively know it was human) wouldn't go insane upon seeing a non-human face in the mirror. Plus, it makes Robo easier to relate to, not just as an audience member, but as a good 'ol citizen of Old Detroit. ----------------------------------- Law Giver Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:15 pm ----------------------------------- Well if they completely blanked out its memory how would it subconsciously remember it was even once human? He was product, a machine nothing more, least that was idea. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:10 am ----------------------------------- Well if they completely blanked out its memory how would it subconsciously remember it was even once human? He was product, a machine nothing more, least that was idea. As Trap said, because it has a human brain, it would by instinct know it was human, if only on completely subconscious or even non-conscious level. Memory and instinct are not the same thing. Besides, they only thought they blanked his memory. Nonetheless, I think blanking his memory was more to eliminate the 'Alex Murphy' part out of him - Destroying his identity, who he once was. I don't believe it could completely destroy the fact that he was still part human. Suppress it maybe, but not eliminate it entirely. I imagine they would have liked to do that, though - but hey, that's what you get when you put a human in a machine, ain't it? :b Now, as the 'official' answer says, if Robo-Murphy did remember he was human once and saw a non-human face (or even no face) and then had some psychological break that fucks up his delicate programming and destroys him, that would be bad. So the face, on a practical level, acts as an additional element to aid in keeping his psyche in-check. A fail-safe, if you will. Trap also hit it on the head with the public-relation point as well. Good job. ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:17 am ----------------------------------- This is why I wish there was chat. Because what I have to say is too much to type all at once here. Actually I don't even know that I could convey myself properly. But main thing is that if they had technology to use a human brain to run a humanoid robot and sustain the brain. God I can't even wrap my mind around it. Why wouldn't they just use a complete machine like a terminator? See here I go, gotta stop now. The whole brain to control this thing is just too outlandish. Can't stop........ OK stopping. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:05 am ----------------------------------- That was the entire purpose of ED-209. It is not only to provide an obstacle for Robo to overcome later on, or an opportunity for Morton to swing in and get his project fast tracked. It showed that a purely mechanical solution lacked even the slightest nuance necessary to do its job. ED didn't hear the gun drop, so he opened fire. ED clearly has visual sensors (or at the very least, a sonar-type system for object and motion detection) that should have picked up Kinney disarming himself, but that small inconsistency between its sensors resulted in ED shooting first and asking questions later. A cyborg offered all of the physical, practical and psychological advantages of a mechanical officer, but with the judgment and gut instinct of a flesh and blood man, all kept in check with the Prime Directives to keep him from bending the rules too much. ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:08 pm ----------------------------------- Yes, yes, yes I know that and your explanation is pretty much spot on. I'm just sayin....... They got a brain runnin a humanoid machine, but they're drivin around tauruses. Cracks me up. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:20 pm ----------------------------------- They got a brain runnin a humanoid machine, but they're drivin around tauruses. Cracks me up. I got ya man, but frankly, what would you have 'em driving for squad cars when they shot the movie in the mid 1980s? Flying DeLoreans? :b Bah, never mind - Off-point. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:17 am ----------------------------------- Police cars were big, blocky, ugly things when RoboCop was made. When the Crown Vic went back into production (and subsequently became the de facto police vehicle) it took many of its styling cues from the Taurus. At least they never used the car they built specifically for Robo... that thing was a friggin' joke! ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:38 pm ----------------------------------- Anybody know how much Robo is supposed to weigh. It's just like in terminator, this real heavy machine gets in and out of a car, or on a motorcycle, and the suspension doesn't sag or lean anymore than if a normal person was getting into or onto them. ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:09 am ----------------------------------- Right question Demise ! ( I m here really long time but really dont know the answer ) But of the things we had chance to see in films and series .. I think he is much more lighter then Terminator ! In the R1 we can to see Lewis what did not have problem help him get into the car when he was running from Jones . In Robocop 2,3 he was carried by a few persons . In R3 it was three guys oh also Niko managed to carry his leg :lol: Robocop the series it managed also two men .. well so the summary .. he is probably lighter than Terminator I was reading somewhere it is 200kg . so how it is ? knows someone ? ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:33 pm ----------------------------------- 200Kg (440Lbs) is actually fairly heavy. I'd say he's supposed to be lighter than that, though maybe not by much. I wouldn't say he's lighter than the Terminator, as the Terminator is meant to be much closer to human weight, but I would think RoboCop really ain't as heavy as some might think. That figure sounds like it's off the breakdown picture of RoboCop that we've seen before, though I thought it said 200 Lbs. :? I don't remember, and I can't seem to find that picture right now. In any case, that might be worth starting another topic for, actually. I thought there was one like that somewhere but there doesn't seem to be. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:27 am ----------------------------------- PD said he weighed about 500 pounds, but really, that's far too heavy to be able to drive around in the standard police cars. I think it seems feasible for Robo to be between 200 and 300 pounds, considering the higher level of robotics technology in the films and Robo's armored skin. Honda's ASIMO has some specs online, including its prototypes... In 1996, ASIMO weighed in at 463 pounds (210kg) at a height of 6 feet (183cm). In '97, ASIMO stood 5'4" (163cm) and weighed 287lbs (130kg). Circa 2000, ASIMO was four feet tall (122cm) and weighed 115lbs (52kg). ASIMO is now 4'3" (130cm) and weighs 119lbs (54kg). ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:01 am ----------------------------------- Now all we need is the specs if Asimo was wrapped in titanium laminated with kevlar. And a couple feet taller. ----------------------------------- ant Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:07 pm ----------------------------------- Police cars were big, blocky, ugly things when RoboCop was made. When the Crown Vic went back into production (and subsequently became the de facto police vehicle) it took many of its styling cues from the Taurus. At least they never used the car they built specifically for Robo... that thing was a friggin' joke!Is there a video clip/photograph of this ugly car? :D ----------------------------------- RoboSabs Tue May 04, 2010 7:07 pm ----------------------------------- I think his face is real to give him a sense of humanity so that he doesn't look totally like a killer emotionless machine. In the second movie when murphy and lewis are scoping out the arcade, lewis sayes "good eyes Murphy" he says "Best money can buy" i think that they are in someways cybernetic. and in the 3rd movie if you want to count it as "Robocop" *rolls eyes* he has a heart. Cheers Sabs ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Tue May 04, 2010 9:07 pm ----------------------------------- In the second movie when murphy and lewis are scoping out the arcade, lewis sayes "good eyes Murphy" he says "Best money can buy" i think that they are in someways cybernetic and in the 3rd movie if you want to count it as "Robocop" *rolls eyes* he has a heart "Good as money can buy" And his heart is artificial, not organic. And yes, we'll count RoboCop 3. It is a masterpiece compared to some of the shit that has been put out with RoboCop's name slapped on it. It may be the worst movie, but it's still the third best RoboCop fancy moving picture there is in my opinion. I would watch it over the series, animated series, and prime directives any day. ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Tue May 04, 2010 9:25 pm ----------------------------------- I think his face is real to give him a sense of humanity so that he doesn't look totally like a killer emotionless machine. In the second movie when murphy and lewis are scoping out the arcade, lewis sayes "good eyes Murphy" he says "Best money can buy" i think that they are in someways cybernetic. and in the 3rd movie if you want to count it as "Robocop" *rolls eyes* he has a heart. Cheers Sabs But nice said ! Why I still have the feeling ?! Btw welcome RoboSabs Anayway I always thought that with Murphys face it is like in this drawing .. You know the Nahas books and R1 give you the feeling ! http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/093/4/8/Robot_Cop_by_lukedenby.jpg ----------------------------------- RoboSabs Wed May 05, 2010 2:29 am ----------------------------------- Ok yeah i would totally watch R3 over Prime Directives anytime lol I thought Richard Eden did a pretty good job of doing Robocop in the Tv series, waaaay better than Paige Fletcher from PD. Cheers Sabs ----------------------------------- Armor Sat May 29, 2010 5:23 am ----------------------------------- I always thought it was his real face when I 1st saw Robo 1. There's just too much inner workings in regards to skeletal structure and muscle to try to replicate in order to make an accurate portrayal of his face. They needed him to see himself to keep sane and a fake face would freak anyone out. Plus they needed it to be real so as not to scare folks as it made him human and approachable to everyday citizens. But of course the logic doesn't lead itself to make this true as there's too many problems inherent to keeping the tissue alive with blood flow. Plus he states in # 2 that they made it to honor him. But that's if we're including the sequels in the discussion. ----------------------------------- Deus Ex Robo Sun May 30, 2010 2:24 am ----------------------------------- I think by "they made this to honor him", Robo means his whole body rather than just the face. I had a pretty good question to ask about Robo's face, but I've completely forgotten it. It'll come back soon though. I hope. ----------------------------------- Sealurk Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:01 pm ----------------------------------- I definitely think it's Murphy's own face and the front section of his skull, grafted onto a cybernetic skull / brain interface. To me, it just looks like an organic graft, especially the way it lifts at the edges - and of course the bullet hole is a dead giveaway. However, the flesh itself isn't necessarily alive (or the skin, at any rate). It could have been treated with some kind of preservative, something akin to a teflon coating that keeps it relatively pristine and resilient, since Murphy doesn't have the same biological requirements or capabilities as a human. The face itself probably has little to no intrinsic biological value as far as Robo's functioning is concerned, but it is probably of incalculable psychological value, both to Murphy's sanity and stability and people dealing with RoboCop, and of course it would likely be very important to have a functioning face for Murphy to be able to speak properly. I doubt his voice is entirely artificial. ----------------------------------- Officer Harvey Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:26 am ----------------------------------- Exactly what Sealark said. I too believe that Murphy's face is INDEED Murphy's face including the eyes. It is just not 'alive' but is apparently maintained with some pseudo-biological tech OCP placed in his system to maintain it. As for the eyes, OCP obviously had the retinas upgraded to give him his zoom capability hence the 'best money can buy' quote Murphy said in R2. ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:55 pm ----------------------------------- But of course the logic doesn't lead itself to make this true as there's too many problems inherent to keeping the tissue alive with blood flow Hey, but as we have had chance to see ( in the PD ) Robocop has except of other liquids also "blood" in his body . :wink: In the R1 has been said that he needs also some simple food, yep baby food to keeping his live tissues alive. So I bet that his brain does not is the only one live "tissue". I think, whole the matter that Robocop has a metal skull started with the Terminators era . Almost everyone who is not too big fan of Robocop or Terminator think that Robocop is a robot totally similar to the Terminator, with a metal skull and etc . And you know, we have here the Marcus and now many of the fans mainly the younger fans think that every one cyborg including a Robocop should look like the Marcus, of course i think his internal metal parts also the his metal skull :roll: :ohdear: ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:11 am ----------------------------------- I think his face is real to give him a sense of humanity so that he doesn't look totally like a killer emotionless machine. In the second movie when murphy and lewis are scoping out the arcade, lewis sayes "good eyes Murphy" he says "Best money can buy" i think that they are in someways cybernetic. and in the 3rd movie if you want to count it as "Robocop" *rolls eyes* he has a heart. Cheers Sabs But nice said ! Why I still have the feeling ?! Btw welcome RoboSabs Anayway I always thought that with Murphys face it is like in this drawing .. You know the Nahas books and R1 give you the feeling ! http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/093/4/8/Robot_Cop_by_lukedenby.jpg That is one GREAT artwork ----------------------------------- gez1967 Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:53 pm ----------------------------------- when I was a kid I always thought it was his head and thought the movie was bad arss.......now at my age iam thinking woooow az if I missed all this when I was a kid.....this what makes it a bad arss movie ----------------------------------- GNracer2000 Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:13 pm ----------------------------------- I believe that Robocop's face is completely artificial. When watching R1 while the are building him and you are watching from his POV the one scientist turns the screen 90 degrees and then the other guy comes in with the pliers before it rolls and blacks out. Then in the next scene the bring in the LED and they drill the corner of the screen down. I would find it hard to believe they would being doing things like this to his human skull. I also think that most of the right side of his brain is gone from the head shot that killed Murphy. We are given no definite time table of construction but I think they had most of the components for Robocop built although not completely assembled. ----------------------------------- Meriandressial Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:47 pm ----------------------------------- I would say his skull is entirely metal. But his face is his own. There is no reason for the scar to be there, otherwise. If his face was artificial, they would make it perfect. But instead its scarred. So its his face. Thats the only organic part of his head, other than his brain. The rest of his head is entirely cybernetic. Also, in RoboCop: Prime Directives, his face is a bit diferent. Were the scar is, there is a metal port. Like with Adam Jenson in Deus Ex: Human Revolution. That makes it more clearly that its his skin only. ----------------------------------- Slash Man Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:47 am ----------------------------------- It seemed like the technicians originally wanted to simply rebuild Murphy as a functioning cop again, but Morton pushed for something of an unstoppable tank. Needless to say, it looked like only his brain survived because that was crucial, and the face as well, for unknown reasons. Having a human mouth and voice would be beneficial to communication. If I could speculate, I'd say maybe Tyler had a role in preserving some of his humanity by keeping his entire face, as she was clearly unnerved by the ethics of what they were doing; it was no longer about bringing Murphy back to life, but a showing of Bob Morton's ego. With the helmet screwed securely in place, it seems like maybe his face was intended to be secret. Funny enough, Robo's face reminds me of an action figure where you're not supposed to remove a mask or helmet (but you do anyways), and you're left with this unpainted and partially unsculpted face underneath. Odd analogy, I know. ----------------------------------- Ex-Machino Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:59 pm ----------------------------------- But of course the logic doesn't lead itself to make this true as there's too many problems inherent to keeping the tissue alive with blood flow Hey, but as we have had chance to see ( in the PD ) Robocop has except of other liquids also "blood" in his body . :wink: In the R1 has been said that he needs also some simple food, yep baby food to keeping his live tissues alive. So I bet that his brain does not is the only one live "tissue". I think, whole the matter that Robocop has a metal skull started with the Terminators era . Almost everyone who is not too big fan of Robocop or Terminator think that Robocop is a robot totally similar to the Terminator, with a metal skull and etc . And you know, we have here the Marcus and now many of the fans mainly the younger fans think that every one cyborg including a Robocop should look like the Marcus, of course i think his internal metal parts also the his metal skull :roll: :ohdear: hi there I have to agree with you on this one, people that aren´t hardcore robofans are more interested in the theory of him being completely artificial whereas fans like us, want to believe there is still more human components left inside his metallic armour ----------------------------------- artuditu Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:43 pm ----------------------------------- Before discovering these forums I always got the feeling Robo in R1 looks very cool from outside, but inside it must be like a horror movie, with a lot of mechanical parts and some living ones coexisting. His helmetless skull is only a hint of what must be going on inside. When they say they saved an arm I always wondered to what was that arm attached, it should be to his human torso right? However the Robomake developed the idea of just a human hand attached to a robotic arm, which however we thought it looked ridiculous. Yet in R2 it pretty much feels as if they decided to make him almost entirely robotic, implying his face is cold and that it's just attached to him in a decorative manner (yet, is Murphy just lying to his wife?). Then he is dismantled and everything we see inside him is robotic, at least where the guts should be, unless there is something organic left inside the chest. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:18 pm ----------------------------------- I think it's a bit both of of what you're talking about. It's said by Faxx he's 'just a couple of chunks' if you take away the artificial and synthetic, which I'd have to say is accurate really in terms of how much of 'Murphy' biologically-proper is actually left and operating. Doesn't mean what you note in your former R1 remark doesn't apply though, that there is a shocking combo of the two there, just indeed all well hidden and protected in his skull (what's left of his brain) and the chest (a rudimentary heart/lung/digestion apparatus all to sustain what's left of the brain, likely 'false'/synthetic organs, but still semi-organic perhaps ala the Terminator, certainly not part of all the wires and electrical/hydraulic/etc machines and devices as elsewhere in his construction). The remake tried to actually play on this 'horror' aspect visually - actually show us, but as we generally agree it all came off quite poorly indeed and I feel ultimately added little more to the film itself than shock value. And in that regard I think the 'horror' of it works best unseen or only slightly seen, as you note in regards to helmetless Robo or 'RoboMurphy' as I refer to it. I agree seeing him that way is quite terrible and tragic. Whereas it's all as you say, 'cool' with helmet on. Again, bit of both. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:10 am ----------------------------------- The remake tried to actually play on this 'horror' aspect visually - actually show us, but as we generally agree it all came off quite poorly indeed and I feel ultimately added little more to the film itself than shock value. In this case shock value is required to make the point it is trying to make. I did think this is one of the things the remake did better, especially the scene of him dreaming and waking up and realizing the horror he has become. The original film went quite the opposite direction, purposefully not revealing any details building up to the big reveal of the final product. Each has its strengths but the thing is you can't do both. The original holds off the true ugliness of Robocop's existence until the last moments, while the remake puts the forward and then shows us the finished product later. I kind of think that is actually the way to go in 2017. In this age of trailers popping up all over facebook and all sorts of other intrusive advertising methods we know a lot more about upcoming movies than in 1987. Take the remake, where we were dissecting details about the suit over a year before the movie came out. You just can't get that big 'wow' moment that we had in the original. Not to say that the people who watch the original now miss out on that, but I think the remake handled that aspect well by playing with our expectations and forcing us to get to know Robocop before he actually becomes the character on the poster. Now, if the whole remake had been focused on the trans it would have been a fine movie. The real problems for me arouse when it started to move onto the main plot, which was not nor nearly as well as the creation of Robocop portion of the film. ----------------------------------- NOF Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:02 am ----------------------------------- The remake tried to actually play on this 'horror' aspect visually - actually show us, but as we generally agree it all came off quite poorly indeed and I feel ultimately added little more to the film itself than shock value. And in that regard I think the 'horror' of it works best unseen or only slightly seen, as you note in regards to helmetless Robo or 'RoboMurphy' as I refer to it. I agree seeing him that way is quite terrible and tragic. Whereas it's all as you say, 'cool' with helmet on. Again, bit of both. I actually think that was the only moment in the remake that was worthy of the name Robocop. Not only did it hit home to the audience and Murphy that this is what he's been reduced to, but the manipulation by the Oldman character to keep Murphy on his side showed that he was just OCP product. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:45 pm ----------------------------------- The remake tried to actually play on this 'horror' aspect visually - actually show us, but as we generally agree it all came off quite poorly indeed and I feel ultimately added little more to the film itself than shock value. And in that regard I think the 'horror' of it works best unseen or only slightly seen, as you note in regards to helmetless Robo or 'RoboMurphy' as I refer to it. I agree seeing him that way is quite terrible and tragic. Whereas it's all as you say, 'cool' with helmet on. Again, bit of both. I actually think that was the only moment in the remake that was worthy of the name Robocop. Not only did it hit home to the audience and Murphy that this is what he's been reduced to, but the manipulation by the Oldman character to keep Murphy on his side showed that he was just OCP product. I'd agree except just the way it was shot and directed just felt rather exploitative and overly blunt, robbing it of some of the power it should have.. It was striking for sure but not in the way it should've been. I do concur with Pimp though - had they focused more on and done that element better it would have made for, if not a better film, than at least a more interesting film. If nothing else it would have been more its own which I'd have at least given it some credit for. As I've said before much of the first act of the film has something there but it ultimately ends up dragging into droll, failing itself in - among other things - the inability to go one way or another with any real conviction. Anyway, since I don't wanna troll back into remake bashing again here I'll again say artu has it right both ways, though I always kinda leaned more toward his latter take on Robo being 'almost all machine'. It seemed that way to me even from the original, yes maybe there's some 'guts' but what there is is almost all if not totally to serve a practical purpose, they don't make him 'not a machine' in the sense of him having a soul and identity, being something still truly remaining of Murphy. That line of thought again I've pretty much always had and it's what made the reveal of the eye and later his face stand out so much for myself. It's Murphy's face, his face, but that's more-or-less it in terms of what he has that really distinguishes himself from being only a machine. And even then it has a semi-practical purpose in terms of Robo operating normally, as a psychological buffer. But that's really what does it I think. Eh, I've said some of this before and still I feel like I'm maybe oversimplifying here, but there it is. ----------------------------------- RoboLewis Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:50 pm ----------------------------------- When Murphy gets turned on for the first time and “its starting to roll,” those are his ‘new eyes’ that are watching everyone right? I’m trying to understand how long they were working on Murphy’s human remains. Tyler tells Morton they were able to save the left arm, and of course Bob says “Lose the arm” does that mean his cybernetic eyes are inside of his human head? I know it’s an odd question, but I’ve wondered for years how they put him together since we never see it.