----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:27 am RoboCop 3 fan commentary ----------------------------------- I decided to add another chapter and give it a separate spotlight. In case someone missed it, here was the list of siliness in the first chapter from the movie Sure would be. I noticed so many signature elements for a cartoon, and when you have a script for a cartoon with an elementary school humor (picking nose...) and youre presenting it through a live action movie, its really silly. Just for fun, heres my commentary on the first chapter of R3 titled "Eviction" on trilogy DVD. Ironically, its probably the least flawed from them all. *I realy like the opening, probably the best thing about the movie. I find it funny how the father in the opening Delta City commercial looks like George Clooney. And I also like the fact that the Delta City is becoming a reality, althought something;s wrong here - wasn't Delta City already well into development in the first movie, with a large part of the city already built? Mediabreak was cool too, althought I missed Jess. * And here's where it goes downhill and ridiculousness starts. Right away we're presented with the first example of the shameless and corny stereotype, one of many many in the movie. R3 is probably the most stereotype and cliche loaded movie of the 90s, with only several cheap 80s B movies matching its level. -We have a computer genius kid who is Asian...(cliche and sterotype in one) -We have a good family represented as multiracial with caucasian male and asian female, a typical set for Disney and 80s family movies * And here's when we say goodbye to logic for the first time: The wrecking ball hits the house suddenly when there was nothing around but peace and quiet. Well, what happened to the crowds on the streets? what happened to all the halogen lights, Rehab trucks and commotion on the streets? What happened to the Rehab officers with megaphones? I mean, I can easily forgive not hearing the giant crane outside cause thats a pretty minor thing which worked for the scene, but not to hear Rehabs and all the commotion, and then suddenly having a riot outside? The way it was presented just doesnt work at all, it falls flat on its behind *Rehab loading the gun for gramma was just silly and completely unnecessary. Its a silly element borrowed from cartoons where kids are reminded of the danger, like growling dog for example, even if the angry dog is onscreen nonethless. But kids dont focus as much as adults, thats why they have to be reminded in a very unsubtle way of what theyre seeing. So the gun wasnt enough, it had to be reloaded by a big angry guy to make it visible. Thats NOT the same thing as uncocking the gun in the movie - the gun HAS to be uncocked and serves a different purpose: showing that the person is serious about and ready to shoot. * Now, why would rehabs pull Nikko from her parents and then just release her? I was wondering why are they separated in the first place and thought that maybe kids have a separate bus, but then I go"what the hell?" when they manage to pull her away, they just leave her. "you broken cow":...ah, PG 13. The thing is PG 13 allows to say "bitch" at least. I think the movie shouldve been rated PG. If I would use an insult like this against someone, Im pretty sure that person would be pretty confused and ask me if Im gay. Its in the same vein as "you silly goose" * So everyones gone but not Nikko and shes screaming on top of her lungs, yet nobody noticed her and everyone just left. Oooh-kay? * lol, what was the rehab doing there standing still like a statue with the lights off not moving? And who turned on the lights in the van? there was no one inside and he didnt move. And why did he fire a shot? That would only scare her away! And why didnt he react earlier when she was screaming there for a long time walking around * we see another cartoon element which will became a big pattern in this movie - things being conveniently handed or placed just when and where they needed. Nikko falls just in front of the van's door So thats that for Chapter one So lets go to the next Chapter titled Arming up * factual error: after Bertha and her team blow up the gates we see some pieces burning around. Well, its iron, it wouldnt catch on fire. Still, its something I can easily forget since it serves the story by showing a cooler amount of destruction * No one's watching the surveillance cameras that are planted all over the place? * Bertha and the gang enter the Police Ordnance depot, they find an ED-209 waiting for them. It threatens to shoot them, but instead of running, they just stand there. They didn't know the girl was some kind of computer nerd that could reprogram ED-209, but for nearly 20 seconds, they just stand there. * Just because Niko is a fan of RoboCop doesn't mean she can hack an ED-209. Where would she get the model diagrams of an ED-209 to be able to find where he can be controlled from? Where would she get something that wouuld surely be top sceret, the blueprints for a military weapon? Even during this scene, ED lifts the leg that Niko is working on and there's no sight of her. The last time we saw ED in action was blasting a guy to pieces. he was presented as a serious and dangerous weapon that cannot be fully controlled. here, its downgraged to a toy that a 9 year od can control, never even scratching anybody * Even when ED is counting down, they still just stand there in the line of fire even tho theyre right by the gate where they can duck. Plus, a little kid reprogrammed Ed 209 in about 10 seconds. Some piece of equipment... * "All we have to do is figure out how to get this door open"...mm, okay, so they used detonators to open the gate. Well, thats a clue. Not to mention it wouldve been easier to just jump through the gate and use the charges for the door just in case. We then get Disney music in the background followed by some cute moves from Nikko and ED blasting the door Any more additions to that chapter? ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:17 am ----------------------------------- Ah, what the heck, Ill add another one. This one's titled Police Activity * Here we see the first example of how Dekker confused SATIRE with COMEDY. We have a scene that could as well be in National Lampoon with Chevy Chase or even better - Police Academy. The guy walks in to a donut shop/night diner (what kind of choice is that?), visibly looks around (and he sure would anyway) and doesnt see any cops. Pulls out the shotgun and we then see the place is packed with cops. Only in cartoon baby. We then see a typical Police Academy moments like the cops shown to be lazy morons not following procedures and acting like high school boys. Where's Mahoney? And need I add what an old and juvenile stereotype and cliche this is? Cops in a donut place? * more cartoon dialogue and comedy lines :"he's not big on donuts", and then you actually hear the two guys talking about how cyborgs dont eat... * one of many shameless attemempts to copy the original: Lewis chewing gum, the throwback about the Amazon war and the suspects in a van. Typical hollywood move - screw story and art, just follow a formula this time. Do a movie thats more similar to the one that made more $. Paint by numbers. A kind of "sucking up to the original" situation. "it feels like something being made because someone sees a successful format, rather than something they want to say" - avrev.com * Lewis in pursuit calling the central. Yet all other units are busy...eating donuts... * More cartoony lines between the two cops in the car with "watch it" talk * More sucking up to the original: SUX. And you can see clearly that Lewis' car is empty when it skids upside down, but thats a technical error, so I dont care for that really. The cops had an accident yet no backup arrives even tho they didnt really drive that far from the donut stop. But again, theyre all too busy eating donuts, right? * first signs of heavy censorship of violence, the exact opposite of what Verhoeven likes - we see a small red dot and no actual damage when the civilian gets shot with an..uh..arrow? * Who gave that cop a badge? Why is he using a shotgun in such situation? First of all, none of the splatter punks are visible yet so theres no target, secondly, its impossible to accurately aim the shotgun from such distance or more importantly, hit something! Yet he's pumping shot after shot! Duh...And why wont they just leave the place and start backing up in a defensive formation? (covering up each other, walking backwards) * When did Reed became an asshole? When did orders become more important to him than his deputy's safety?? Its even more confusing by the actions that he'll take later in the very same movie * Why Robo didnt just shut the radio off? Why he had to make a hole and smash his device altogether? * the moron cops wasted all their ammo shooting at empty space and the genius shotgun cop didnt even realize he was out of ammo. Well, no surprise here since he didnt even know the range and possibilities of a shotgun * why are Splatterpunks considered such danger? Theyre no different than any other punks - wearing knives and other stabbing weapons and using Molotov cocktails. What makes them so dangerous? Not to mention they all look like friends of Bebop and Rocksteady from Ninja Turtles * We see the first signs of a toy commercial - Robo, with detachable arms! Exactly like Kenner and Mattel action gifures, with all those exchangable arms and accessories. * Taurus cannot go through concrete...not to mention the Taurus seems completely unaffected by that stunt. Not even a dent in the bumper * One of the most ridiculous scene in the movie: Robo shoots the roof and makes a hole to get through it and ask the punks to stop. I mean, LOL. Does it need a commentary? Why not just open the door???? Not only would it be quicker and would be better for the surprise effect, but it would also save ammo and wouldnt destroy the car! Only in cartoon baby. Of course kids dont question that, they see something that looks "kool" and dont think logically. BUt for an adult this is simply ridiculous and things like that make it impossible for an adult to get into that movie and suspend the disbelief We also get to hear Robo's mega low Arnold-like voice in this scene for the first time. Not only is the voice super thick, but with a very strong echo effect. We also get introduced to the Robot-Robo. NO "leave them alone scum" comments, just the official GPS talk. "In some scenes he sounds like a dumb jock or a surfer dude" - combustiblecelluloid.com about Burke's performance. See, I dont blame Burke. I blame the script and the directions given by the director. Although Im sure if Weller was around he would say that this is not how Robo talks and acts like * More GPS talks with Lewis and then another cartoony scene with catching a bullet. That will create some serioous inconsistencies later on, but thats later. Oh and still no backup. Those cops must be really busy with those donuts few streets away ----------------------------------- Officer Igor Antunes Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:40 am ----------------------------------- Real good so far, KidsGoWild. I hope MGM read this before thinking about reboot the whole trilogy! Im waiting for more. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:38 pm ----------------------------------- Where's Mahoney? He sailed off with Sharon Stone in a hot air balloon, remember? :mrgreen: first signs of heavy censorship of violence, the exact opposite of what Verhoeven likes - we see a small red dot and no actual damage when the civilian gets shot with an..uh..arrow? Though the damage effect is piss-poor, he was hit with a bullet from a gun - If you listen closely, you'll hear a subdued gunshot 'boom' immediately after he is hit, which would actually be quite accurate if he was shot by a gun firing supersonic rounds at some distance away. The actual 'damage' effect is still shit, as you and I both said. If he got hit from the back, the back (entry-wound) might look closer to that, but a good portion of the front of his fuckin chest would be all over Lewis if the bullet actually exited - Or at least, I'm sure Verhoeven would have shown it like that anyway. * why are Splatterpunks considered such danger? Theyre no different than any other punks - wearing knives and other stabbing weapons and using Molotov cocktails. What makes them so dangerous? Not to mention they all look like friends of Bebop and Rocksteady from Ninja Turtles Well, I imagine anyone's dangerous when you're outnumbered 2-3 to one, especially when they have weapons of any sort and you're more-or-less unarmed. Plus at least one of them had a SMG, which you see him shoot very briefly in vain when Robo starts wastin' 'em. But your point leading up to it is spot on, why would they even start shooting? These ain't soldiers in the damn jungle where a stray round MIGHT actually hit something, these bastards were taking cover behind buildings and staying well out of range. Sorry man, I just wanted to address a couple of things, not meaning to take away from your entire piece, which is spot-on. Looks like I even added a couple things, too. Oh well, I guess. :b Overall man, I'm liking your piece(s) here - They remind me a lot of [url=http://www.goingfaster.com/term2029/t3review.html]this page on T3. All-in-all, this thing is going great, I'm just nitpicking little bullshit. Keep it up anyway man. :wink: ----------------------------------- Archive Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:22 pm ----------------------------------- Great stuff, love it. There's so much stupid stuff that i never even thought about. Please continue with more chapters! :) ----------------------------------- Dash Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:05 pm ----------------------------------- *Rehab loading the gun for gramma was just silly and completely unnecessary. Its a silly element borrowed from cartoons where kids are reminded of the danger, like growling dog for example, even if the angry dog is onscreen nonethless. It's funny... when I saw that for the first time, for some reason (maybe it was his delivery), I thought he was showing that his gun was EMPTY, and remembering thinking, "what was the point of that?" :b "you broken cow":...ah, PG 13. The thing is PG 13 allows to say "bitch" at least. I think the movie shouldve been rated PG. If I would use an insult like this against someone, Im pretty sure that person would be pretty confused and ask me if Im gay. Its in the same vein as "you silly goose" I thought he said "drunken cow"...? That would have been better, if not. * lol, what was the rehab doing there standing still like a statue with the lights off not moving? Wasn't he wearing IR goggles too? Which brings up too things: 1) Why wouldn't he try to sneak up on her while he had the dark to cover him? 2) Why would his numb-nuts partner in the van BLIND HIM with that giant light? People are damn goofy. :) The last time we saw ED in action was blasting a guy to pieces. Actually, the last time we saw him he was stuck in a manhole. Which kinda makes his "watchdog" demotion in this film a bit more appropriate. :b * When did Reed became an asshole? When did orders become more important to him than his deputy's safety?? Its even more confusing by the actions that he'll take later in the very same movie He did mention that there were three other vehicles en route to Lewis, so that's anywhere from 3-6 cops for backup (assuming they were all cruisers). I don't think it's really an asshole move because no one could have guessed they wouldn't make it in time if Robo followed orders--especially when rebels have been ripping off gun depots and a battered yellow van with no plates is your only lead. Otherwise, some really great points here. I've one to add: Mr. Fancy-Pants Splatter Punk with his Batarang-like blade... I don't care if the fuzz were out of ammo, who the hell brings a knife to a gun fight?! I'll tell you who: a Fancy-Pants Splatter Punk. With a Mohawk. Damn straight. :) ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:07 am ----------------------------------- first signs of heavy censorship of violence, the exact opposite of what Verhoeven likes - we see a small red dot and no actual damage when the civilian gets shot with an..uh..arrow? Though the damage effect is piss-poor, he was hit with a bullet from a gun - If you listen closely, you'll hear a subdued gunshot 'boom' immediately after he is hit, which would actually be quite accurate if he was shot by a gun firing supersonic rounds at some distance away. Yeah, but Verhoeven and Kershner would actually show the wound from the angle where the guy was hit. If Im not mistaken, thats also the only instance where we see blood in this movie. I may be wrong tho. You know, I understand that this was a movie for little boys, but Robocop wasnt a franchise for little boys to beginn with. As I said in a different thread, the gore wasnt there just to blow intestants, its there to give the story the real-ness and edge. Thats how it looks like in real life, its ugly, its terrifying. It doesnt cut back to something else and it doesnt just look like a blood stain. The whole thing (R1 & R2) was a satire on the darkest side of reality, with many innuendos and real social problems. Thats why Robo shouldnt be just a kids story with a robot cop in the first place. Its called missing the mark completely as far as what the story and what the series was Well, I imagine anyone's dangerous when you're outnumbered 2-3 to one, especially when they weapons of any sort and you're more-or-less unarmed. Plus at least one of them had a SMG, which you see him shoot very briefly in vain when Robo starts wastin' 'em. But your point leading up to it is spot on, why would they even start shooting? These ain't soldiers in the damn jungle where a stray round MIGHT actually hit something, these bastards were taking cover behind buildings and staying well out of range. My point is that they alsmot crapped their pants when they saw the splatterpunks logo on the pole. Yet we get the regular slums punk gang, nothing more. Almost all of them seem to be unarmed (with firearms) as evidenced by the first and latter scenes, except for the two pirates (???) who shot at Robo. Not to mention cops immediately pulled out their guns and shotguns...for regular punk group! :b Actually, the last time we saw him he was stuck in a manhole. Which kinda makes his "watchdog" demotion in this film a bit more appropriate. :b I know, thats why I said IN ACTION :wink: * When did Reed became an asshole? When did orders become more important to him than his deputy's safety?? Its even more confusing by the actions that he'll take later in the very same movie He did mention that there were three other vehicles en route to Lewis, so that's anywhere from 3-6 cops for backup (assuming they were all cruisers). I don't think it's really an asshole move because no one could have guessed they wouldn't make it in time if Robo followed orders--especially when rebels have been ripping off gun depots and a battered yellow van with no plates is your only lead. I know but just like the audience, Reed would surely know that Robo is Lewis' best option, especially since her LIFE was on line ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:43 am ----------------------------------- Anyways, next chapter: Splatter Punks * we see the two splatterpunks, Bebop and Rocksteady, run as fast as they can. Yet Robo, with his slow motion walk, catches up to them almost instantly. They would successfully loose him by just walking away * so they toss bottles with flamable liquid into Robo and he's just standing there...Robo from the first two movies would just simply take them down, but the robot-Robo here is just standing there watching, even when they aim the flare at him. And even when he gets ingited, he still doesnt shoot!!! He just continues to slowly walk towards them...what the? I understand its a PG 13 movie, but then a good writign requires to create situations that would work for the rating, not sacrifice logic * why the splatterpunk has to be completely focused to pull the trigger? He doesnt. Its another cartoony scene. Only in cartoon baby. Robo throws a line and does something he was doing the whole time they were throwing bottles at him - aims at them. Only surprisingly this time they noticed it and took it seriously. * Another robot_robo GPS line - "Im fine Anne. Thank you for asking". Sounds like the reprogrammed screwed up Robo from the previous movie. And has as much tone in his speech as ATM machine * Something I noticed: where the hell is Lewis' armor??? * Robo and Lewis see families being separated by force, yet surprisingly they do nothing about it this time around - One of few good scenes in the movie: When Robo looks at the crucifix its a nice little moment ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:27 am ----------------------------------- Next Chapter: Judgment Calls *More stereotypes: Big japanese corporation and fat and dumb american CEO * More comedy instead of satire in the conference room * no explanation about what happend to OCP and Old Man.When I first saw R3 I just assumed that the RoboCain incident led to Old Man's prosecution and that he couldnt get away with it after all. I also thought that this and the payments to the families of the victims and all the legal repercussions led to the demise of OCP and the state it was in R3 (greatly falling and partially owned by Kanemitsu). But when I rewatched R3 for the first time in ages I realized that it doesnt add up to what I always thought. The CEO spokes highly about the Old Man. He wouldnt if they would be talking about a corrupted prosecuted criminal, and theres no mention of the attack from the previous movie. I quickly realized that theres really no explanation - they dropped the ball. Well, kids wouldnt care because they werent suppose to see the first two movies anyway, right? * more shameless and forced ties to the original movie in the form of Delta City and Johnson sucking up like Bob did in R1. While its not necessarily a crime in itself, compounded with all the other throwback scenes it just creates something that wants to suck up and forcingly tie itself to the original masterpiece. And if Im not mistaken, Delta City already started to rise in R1. We see Robo entering Delta City with quite a few skyscrapers already risen when he's on his way to Jones' office. With all fairness, its an incosistency in itself in R1 so I wont bag on R3 for it * We get introduced to Otomo, a ninja android (another stereotype btw - Japan=Ninja), a villain that was called the worst villain ever by IGN.Before seeing R3 I was wondering how the Robocop II Monster can be topped? It couldn't and it wasn't. Japanese guy in black is such a step down that its laughable. Still, in-universe he may be faster, stronger etc, but is there any possibility that a simple asian guy dressed in black can be more fascinating and breath taking than ED 209 or RoboCain? Japanese Ninja androids Otomo proved to be a weak idea coming after such extravaganza. We already had life-like cyborgs and terminator and any other movie did a much better job. Also, there was no skeleton visible, nothing. About the only thing we got was fractured face - pretty lame in the era of very nice looking cyborg skeletons (*cough* Terminator) * We see one of the worst scenes in the movie - a Police Academy version of the scene from the first movie with the suspect and his attorney in Reed's face. While the scene in R1 presented flaws in our laws and the burocracy, here its just a straight out, simple parody with a big black guy dressed as a girl with a lollipop...nuff said. We also see another tie to the original in the form of Cecil * More GPS robot-robo - "You look like youve been friends with a mac truck" , "I dont have many-friends"...uh, robo, this is something called joke. Im sure robots dont understand that but humans sometimes joke around and arent always literal in their statement. Seriously, you want to tell me this automat was a human being one time? No way!Marie was right in that this robot utilizes human tissue, but she was completely wrong about Murphy being there somewhere. Theres no Murphy there, thats for sure. Not a single trace of him or any humanity or personality. He is even more alien to human emotions and behavior than he ever was, even in the first part of R1 when he was just a cyborg with wiped out memory * Fleck is actually a good character (to a point) because he has that classic OCP asshole personality to him. I just dont understand why the Robot_Robo doesnt even pay attention to the conversation Marie has with Fleck about wiping his memory * THE WINNER: my favorite, and the absolute king of ridiculousness here - Fleck orders to wipe out Robo's memory and - get ready for it - it so happened that the Doc JUST had the microneurobarrier to wiping out Robocop memories in his pocket!! :lol: :lol: :lol: How convenient! But you know, never leave home without it :wink: Also, here's a couple logical problems with that idiotic device: - Everything that had something to do with Murphy's brain was done when they were constructing him, because - well, the changes to the brain have to be done surgically, thats why they wiped out his memory right off the bat, right in the first stages when they were dealing with brain, because... -...if it could be done in any other way, they would wipe out his memory again again when he gained it back in R1 or in R2 when Murphy's persona was resisting the new directives. The idea of just planting a chip somewhere without taking Robo apart or complicated surgery is just laughable. And how funny that after all these years someone from OCP, who's not even a scientist would think of an idea of erasing Murphy from Robocop. If it couldve been done, it wouldve been done a long time ago * When Marie and Lewis look at the monitors and reflex over Murphy's memories, Robot-robo is completely absent and unresponsive, like a piece of equipment * We then see Marie watching Murphy's memories so she can feel sorry for him. If you ask me, its pretty obvious she wouldnt erase his memory even without seeing the videos again, but like in every kids movie, everything has to be spelled out and shown in a painfully obvious way. In this case the young audience may not assume that Marie feels erasing those memories is wrong, so they have to be shown a scene where the video memories are supposedly making her decision harder ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:26 pm ----------------------------------- My point is that they alsmot crapped their pants when they saw the splatterpunks logo on the pole. Yet we get the regular slums punk gang, nothing more. Almost all of them seem to be unarmed (with firearms) as evidenced by the first and latter scenes, except for the two pirates (???) who shot at Robo. Not to mention cops immediately pulled out their guns and shotguns...for regular punk group! :b Oh well, that's certainly true. After all, these were supposed to be the same cops who charged full-steam into Cain's hideout back in R2. Lewis also went in with just Murphy against the multiple-cop-killer Boddicker. And yeah, they're scared shitless of these pecker-necks? Good point. Well, that's all - The other stuff is sounding good, keep going. :) ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:45 am ----------------------------------- Ok, lets continue Next stop - Chapter titled Serve The Public * Why is Robo asking questions he already knows the answers for? I really dont understand what was the purpose of that line about Lewis' brother. I know it was suppose to add some tension and uncertainty about Robo's memory, but like this? Otherwise this line just doesnt make sense logically.(sarcasm on) And why is that robot asking to call him Murphy? (sarcasm off) * Why the hell is Robo aiming a gun at the people in the church? Not only they werent armed but they also didnt pose any threat and didnt even move. And he doesnt stop aiming at them untill the rehabs arrive and take his attention with the lights * Do rehabs really have a teleportation device? Its the second time they suddenly appear out of a thin air. Lewis came in from the outside, she would surely see some approaching cars or just about anything. It was a quiet and empty and late night. 4 seconds after she enters the church from the outside we hear rehabs. Robo and Lewis take a peek outside and..surprise! Suddenly the whole place is surrounded by rehabs who are already formed in tactical formation, packed all of their cars and vans around, prepared their weapons and the entire equipment including the search lights. They just materialized out of thin air, they surely have some teleportation device, right? ONLY in cartoon baby * What the hell is Directive 4 doing back after so many years? I thought it was obvious that it was taken down after the events in R1 when it presented its flaws and contradiction to law. A man was taken hostage and the attacker and murder suspect couldnt be handled by Police Officer because of that directive. Logically, it was absent in R2. So what is that doing back here now? Not to mention in R1 he just couldnt arrest a high rank OCP guy, it never said anything about obeying them. "Never oppose an OCP officer". Well, I think writers themselves instantly forgot what directive they gave Robo because he simply breaks that rule with ease - he doesnt listen to Mcdagget, he doest step away from the door. He just cannot shoot him, which would indicate that Directive 4 is the same one as in R1 - that he cannot arrest or kill OCP guys. But the incosistent writing and a bad plothole says that thats not what the directive says, and he breaks it like that yet his programm doesnt allow him to do something thats not even listed in his directives. Duh.. * What happened with Lewis' IQ? First of all, why on Earth is she challenging the entire squadron of armed and armored rehabs with one handgun, NO ARMOR and NO COVER? In R2, even when shes armored like a soldeir with body armor and helmet, she still uses Robo for cover. HEre she stands there like a duck, IN FRONT OF ROBO, with nothing to hide behind, no body armor..I mean, its so completely devoided of any logic that its mind blowing. * Its also amazing how now Robo and Lewis are taking a stand for the evicted people when rehabs want them out of the building, yet they did completely nothing when they witnessed parents being separated from children with force *Well ok, Robo doesnt shoot a high rank OCP officer for some reason (and of course, we know that because of the bad writing the writers confused or incorrectly wrte the Directive 4), why isnt he just shooting the other rehabs then? Is he suppose to listen to the regular recruits too? Wow, thats pretty bad then * One of the worst GPS-Robocop moments in the entire movie. Lewis gets shot, shes dying. Yet he STILL doesnt show ANY kind of emotion. Nothing. Instead he talks like a factory robot or GPS by just coldly stating the facts in a monotone voice. When Lewis got shot in R1, Robo shouted "Lewis!!" on the top of his lungs, with both fear and concern in his scream. Can you imagine the same Robo doing what the GPS-Robo is doing here? ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:28 am ----------------------------------- Next Chapter: Underground * "Im fine". The girl should learn that she wotn get anything out of this GPS-Robo and that its really hard to communicate with it. * "tracking" - more of the deep dialogue from GPS-robo * Next question: how on earth did Nikko ever got technical data and project bluperints for Robocop? Wasnt it a top secret project? How would she get into OCP and access the technical files on Robocop to know every piece of his body and even where the tracker is found!!!?? Data that even Robo doesnt know himself? Why wont she fix him then? * It took rehabs a veeeery long time to find a manhole *"Set an extra place" - umm, so theyre only setting one extra place? What about all the people they gathered from the streets? The people from the church? They dont deserve any space? * How convenient that just when Marie turned on the tv, they were just explaining what happened. They just started. It wasnt in the middle of anything, nothing. Next Chapter: Reparations *More comedy instead of satire in representing OCP's fall * Typical cartoon element: everytime the villain appears he has a theme. And in here we also get a stereotype too - since Otomo is Japanese, every time he appears in the frame we hear a Japanese music. Cartoon all the way * Android smoking cigarettes doesnt really look coool... * Otomo walks away and we hear the ancient Japanese music again ...lol * Fleck ultimately proves to be yet another caricature straight out of a comedy. The way he acts, the whole dialogue and the execution of that scene - pure comedy * Uber siliness - little girl walks into Police Department and no one notices her. And thats not all, she even walks into Robocop's lab - unnoticed! How come some crooks never walked into his lab before then to mess something up if a little girl without anybody around her could just parade all over Police Department and enter such secure area. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:32 pm ----------------------------------- * It took rehabs a veeeery long time to find a manhole I always figured they were following the tracking beacon, so maybe they just followed it to nearest manhole? Just a thought. *"Set an extra place" - umm, so theyre only setting one extra place? What about all the people they gathered from the streets? The people from the church? They dont deserve any space? I believe they already had hideout places set up for the regular refugees/rebels, as indicated by the map Otomo captures later. She might have wanted to set an 'extra' place to put Robo since they couldn't move him as far. * Uber siliness - little girl walks into Police Department and no one notices her. And thats not all, she even walks into Robocop's lab - unnoticed! How come some crooks never walked into his lab before then to mess something up if a little girl without anybody around her could just parade all over Police Department and enter such secure area. That's something that always made me cringe. In addition, she literally walks into a bunch of cops and NONE of them stop her! Granted they're all storming out, but you'd think one of them might think to stop and ask some little girl what the hell she's doing in a police station, in an area that's undoubtedly supposed to be off-limits to civilians. Hell, I think one of the dumb donut-hogs actually says 'excuse me' when they walk around Nikko. Bah. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:58 am ----------------------------------- * It took rehabs a veeeery long time to find a manhole I always figured they were following the tracking beacon, so maybe they just followed it to nearest manhole? Just a thought. Thats most likely what they were aiming for. But then it creates more logical problems - how did they want to engage a large number of armed people along with robocop from the top? Wouldnt it be better to just enter any manhole and follow the tunnels rather than have such a huge disadvantage of entering from the top? *"Set an extra place" - umm, so theyre only setting one extra place? What about all the people they gathered from the streets? The people from the church? They dont deserve any space? I believe they already had hideout places set up for the regular refugees/rebels, as indicated by the map Otomo captures later. She might have wanted to set an 'extra' place to put Robo since they couldn't move him as far. Doubtful because - well, they didnt specify its for a robot. Bertha just told them to set an extra place for a friend and thats it, even thought they had so many refugees with them. I doubt they already had their places because they couldnt predict how many refigees theyre gonna bring this time around. It seems like a logical thing for Bertha to do to tell them how many extra beds and supplies they need before they arrive. Yet here she just needs one. Bertha's line was suppose to be dramatical but didnt have sense. That's something that always made me cringe. In addition, she literally walks into a bunch of cops and NONE of them stop her! Granted they're all storming out, but you'd think one of them might think to stop and ask some little girl what the hell she's doing in a police station, in an area that's undoubtedly supposed to be off-limits to civilians. Hell, I think one of the dumb donut-hogs actually says 'excuse me' when they walk around Nikko. Bah. Yeah. And whats even crazier is that she accessed Robo's lab! ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:02 am ----------------------------------- Anywayz, next chapter: Good As New * What was the point of leaving the three men to guard the abandoned base? They would have stood no chance against any search patrol and would have simply given the Rehabs the map to the real base (on one of the three men). And why did the man even have that transparency with the red path, when he had no map to use it with? It was useless to him without a map, and only would have been a liability if he had been killed. * The opaque red lined map that Otomo retrieves from his first fight is ridiculous. Why would people who know where the hidden base is be carrying around a map on them (which shows a route so basic that they'd have to be brain-dead not to be able to remember it anyway) just so that conveniently one of their enemies can get it? Not to mention he didnt even had it hidden, he had it STICKING OUT from the FRONT POCKET! :lol: * Another example of the cartoonishly conveniently placed objects - the lone metal pipe was lying there just by the resistance guy's feet. He whacks Otomo with a metal pole on the right hand side of his face, yet when he stands up, his mouth is dislocated to the right, instead of the left * "A vehicle is approaching" - more of the deep dialogue from the GPS-Robo. Seriously, you cannot possible tell me this auomat was ever human. Refrigirator has more personality * Marie and Nikko show up with a huge police van, and lots of computer equipment. Are we to believe that they stole these items from a busy police station and no-one noticed? How did they get all those heavy computers and machines loaded into the van by themselves? Did the police not notice one of their SWAT vans missing either? * More ripping off from the original - we see Robo repaired from his POV, completed with accidental turn on and even accidental screw up * Inconsistency: in R2 its been said that a great equipment is needed to erase the directives, something that cant be done even in Robo lab. yet in R3 Marie erases directive 4 with just few things taken from the Robo lab * Nothing better to force the connection to the original more than actual scenes from the first movie in a flashback *"How are you feeling"? "My efficiency rate is 93%" - more GPS talk from the automat sitting on the chair like a statue. His robotic behavior not only cancels out any possibility that he has ever been a human ebing, but also shows his stupidity. Its a common sense to know that its a 9 year old girl asking how are you feeling. Simple" Im fione thank you, you should try to get some sleep" would have been much better and more like Muprhy - you know, the guy from the first movie that they built robocop from? The robocop from the first two movies? Also, in R1 we see Robo sleeping with his head down and even with his mouth open. A very human-like behavior. He never just stood there like a statue. Agaian, Robocop in this movie is 100% machine with absolutely no traces of a human being. And to further ad to the commentary for that scene, he again presents his complete inability to communicate with human beings and have a conversation. Not only he's unresponsive and cant form a humane sentence, but he then goes back to his "freeze" mode just like that. It looks like Nikko talks to a wall *Whats silly is that they even oput the same music in similar moments as in R1 - there are the same music cues when Robo identifies Niko's parents as they were in R1 when Robo was idnetifying his killers ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:28 am ----------------------------------- And the next one: Unfinished Business * Robo storms out of the underground base taking with him his hand attachment, but when he arrives at the police station he has the hand attachment on. A few scenes later he arrives at McDaggetts hotel, and now does not have the hand attachment on, and is back to using his normal gun. Then, when he returns to the underground base, he still is using his normal hand and drops the hand attachment on the ground. So in between all these scenes, where was he keeping his hand and the attachment? He was on foot all the time, and he obviously wasn't carrying them both... * Robo enters the police station and we hear more of the GPS talk. * The rehab guy asking for a cigarrette continues the search for his lighter by touching his body armor. I mean, do they have pockets in those?? * Here we have R3 shootout. Oh boy. In R1 (drug factory) and R2 (Cain's mill) we've seen some great shootout scenes and Robo's moves were choreographed so the way he was shooting the bad guys looked interesting and fancy. In R3, Robo just walks straight and thats it. No turning around, no fancy moves, just walking straight like Frankenstein (well, he acts like him too) and burning...walls...We also see more ripping off from the original. There are moments when he approcahes and grabs the rehab guy that resemble the scene with Clarence in the drug factory. They even used the same camera angles * How come Mcdagget didnt hear the shooting in the hall? HOW?? Robo used his entire clip to shoot that gun in the air and it was in the same corridor where Mcdagget was. Dont forget that Robo's automatic gun is so loud that it was louder than 10 police handguns shooting at the same time in R1. And whats the point in this "dont" trick anyway? He just shot two rehab guys downstairs for pulling their guns on him, yet instead of taking this guy out too he does the trick with the gun, wasting both time and risking loosing his surprise element for mcdagget. * Why the hell Robo doesnt use doors??? He shot a hole in the door that wasnt even locked to enter :lol: When the elevator door sticks, he pushes the thick metal doors outward as though they were made of tinfoil. But when he reaches the room, he shoots out a silhouette in a flimsy wooden door to get in. How stupid. Total waste of ammunition and spoils the surprise factor. And why wasnt mcdagget doing anything when he saw his door being shot at? * pimp car...its a full blown comedy now,. Theres no satire in the movie, just comedy, and its obvsiou the writers thought both are the same thing. Robo in a pink car with the plush dices and all that is simply a parody element * Why are there bullet holes all over McDaggett's van when RoboCop is shooting at him? RoboCop has an advanced tracking system, so he never misses. All of his shots should have hit McDaggett, and only 1 or 2 appear to hit him on his bullet proof helmet. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:29 am ----------------------------------- Next: Invasion Not much to say here because its a short chapter * Why Kuntz went back to the base? Why didnt the rehabs just storm the place right away, why wouldnt he wait to arrive with rehabs, why would he want to go back into the base and tell everyone that its gonna be stormed in few moments? * Why would Reed or any other cop pay for damages Robo had done? By which law? Robo is a machine constructed by OCP, so if something, they are reliable IF someone other than Robo has to be. He's a product and when product does damage, the manufacturer is responsible. And besides, even if Robo is considered a part of the department and a cop, why would anyone pay for other cops' damages? Next Chapter: Good vs Evil * The commercials in R1 and R2 were satires for American consumption and other issues. For exaple, Nukem commercial showed the innapropriate family play in war, the sunblock commercial showed that most of the drugs abnd cosmetics do more damage than good etc. But in R3 we just get n action figure commercial in a cartoon. * When Robo goes back to the underground base, there is a wide shot of him looking around him, and there is nothing on the floor. Robo takes 4 steps infront of him and we are then shown a map right at his feet. It wasn't there a second ago. * What is Otomo even doing there? How did he know that Robo wasnt destroyed or didnt know about the attack and that he will be back? And what took so very long to get there? * When Robo gets his arm chopped off by Otomo, he stands up and in Robovision, you see that he needs power, but you cannot see Otomo who is supposedly right in front of him. * Some of the most cringe worthy lines from Robo. I mean cheese-us, what happened to Murphy, serriously. "Detroit Police,Identify yourself" and when he gets his fingers cut out he is saying that Otomo is arrested for destroying a police property? Man! Where is Murphy??? * Inconsistency: So not only robo lost his human personality and mind, but also his nerves too? Whenever he was hurt in R1 and R2 he showed great pain. When his arm got blasted in R2 weve seen him in pain. Yet here in R3 - completely nothing. Unmoved, just like by everything else. Robo DOES feel pain. Why? simple as that - he has a brain. And its brain thats responsible for pain and has the pain sensors. Now, we know from R2 that he also has nerves as stated by his technicians (and they also clearly say he feels pain). Nerves are responsible for touch and pain. Brain cant be by itself, there has to be a spine there and spine contains all the nerve and spinal chords. And since the brain isnt there just cause its cool this way but its actually connected to the body and controls it, it feels pain just like any human being would. The spine and brain are connected to the mechanisms of the body responsible for movement and commands, so if those mechanisms are touched or hit, he feels pain like if we do when our body is hurt because the nerves and brain are connected to it like they are to our muscles and organism. Simple logic and biology. Also note when Clarence moves the spike around it hurts Robo even more Since the brain HAS TO be connected to the CPU and basic mechanisms in order to at least partially controll them, if those are hit or damaged, he feels pain To support that: note that he doesnt feel pain when his external parts are damaged, like when his armor gets shot. Yet he does react when internal systems are touched - like in R1 when Clarence "nails" him or in R2 when the saw starts to cut through him or when hes getting hit with thousands of volts that run through his entire body, or when ED 209 ripps his armor apart with its bullets or when Hob balsts his hand off - and in R1 too when his body was electrically shocked when Directive 4 kicked in. He was obviously in pain too, twisting, moaning and screaming in agony. Another thing is that its a storytelling device. Robocop (at leats in the first two movies) is a man/conciousness of a man trapped in a machine. He looks like a machine, but his mind and personality and HUMANITY is still there. Its easier to connect with and feel for the character if he seems like us, feels pain, anger etc. And now of course R3 comes in and confuses the hell out of everything cause Robo doesnt feel pain or any human emotions at all in that movie. When his arm gets cut off and even when he gets hit by a grenade he just acts like plain robot with blank expression and zero emotions (even when Lewis dies he remains calm!!) * Inconsistency: In R2, Robo gets his hand shot off and he carries on fine. In this film, he gets his hand cut off and suffers a major power drain. What a weakling he has become... * Another painfully conveniently placed element: Robo gets hit and falls and it so happened that the gunarm was lying right next to him * When Otomo cuts off RoboCop's hand, RoboCop easily places his attachment in place of it and continues fighting. But his arm needed to be screwed off, and Otomo made a clean cut, so surely there would be bits of metal, plastic and wires that would have needed moving before RoboCop could put his attachment on? * We see Casey picking his nose. Its very funny...if youre 10 * the Rehabs gave splatterpunks all kinds of guns from shotguns, handguns, and automatic weapons. The cops and deputized citizens have similiar weapons. But for all the shooting, not one gang member is hit and only one citizen appears to be shot (aside from the three blown off the building roof by the Rehab tank.) I don't think anyone has any bullets. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:22 pm ----------------------------------- * "A vehicle is approaching" - more of the deep dialogue from the GPS-Robo. Seriously, you cannot possible tell me this auomat was ever human. Refrigirator has more personality Especially the Marie and Nikko show up with a huge police van, and lots of computer equipment. Are we to believe that they stole these items from a busy police station and no-one noticed? How did they get all those heavy computers and machines loaded into the van by themselves? Did the police not notice one of their SWAT vans missing either? No ma'am, we're not on strike! .. Shit, you could have fooled me! Why would Reed or any other cop pay for damages Robo had done? By which law? Robo is a machine constructed by OCP, so if something, they are reliable IF someone other than Robo has to be. He's a product and when product does damage, the manufacturer is responsible. And besides, even if Robo is considered a part of the department and a cop, why would anyone pay for other cops' damages? I'm sure OCP had insurance for that kind of stuff. Johnson simply said 'every cent of it will be coming out of your salaries', in the context that they were being punished for not doing anything to stop Robo (bah, like they could even if they wanted to). Since OCP runs the Police in addition to owning Robo, they very well could cut their salaries or whatever for it if they wanted to go through on that threat (Not really ethical or even legal, but we're talking about OCP here) Doesn't change the fact it still sounded stupid and was unneccesary. the Rehabs gave splatterpunks all kinds of guns from shotguns, handguns, and automatic weapons. The cops and deputized citizens have similiar weapons. But for all the shooting, not one gang member is hit and only one citizen appears to be shot (aside from the three blown off the building roof by the Rehab tank.) I don't think anyone has any bullets. Or maybe they just don't hit anything. Not an unreasonable explanation given old ladies are firing SMGs on full-auto and cops are shooting at them with shotguns FROM THE ROOF! You didn't even mention how 'cool' the rehabs looked while rappelling down into the rebels hideout earlier - They start firing immediately and not downwards, but rather upwards TOWARDS EACH OTHER. Not to mention they get so close to each other they almost run into each other going down. Plus something I also remember from that scene - Moreno unloads his whole semi-auto Striker shotgun into a rehab, but he just falls down, no massive blood splatter or flesh damage, he just dies. After taking several shotgun hits point-blank, he should be pretty fucked up. Oh, he had body-armor? So did Murphy and we saw how well he fared after a few Shotgun hits. But that kinda thing is too disturbing for the kiddies to watch, I guess. And now I'm contributing to this... Bah! ----------------------------------- Archive Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:21 pm ----------------------------------- * Some of the most cringe worthy lines from Robo. I mean cheese-us, what happened to Murphy, serriously. "Detroit Police,Identify yourself" and when he gets his fingers cut out he is saying that Otomo is arrested for destroying a police property? Man! Where is Murphy??? It feels like they just didn't know how to balance the human and robotic sides. Instead they just went for pure comedy, much like Terminator3. RoboCop2 has several similar short cold lines like "ladies, stay down." and "we can't have that" etc, but they were all delivered by Weller in such a manner it worked. Personally i wouldn't want a Murphy that is TOO human, he needs to retain that certain short police lingo, but apparently Robo3 didn't know how to make it work. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:04 pm ----------------------------------- Or maybe they just don't hit anything. Not an unreasonable explanation given old ladies are firing SMGs on full-auto and cops are shooting at them with shotguns FROM THE ROOF! :lol: that is just hilarious. I didnt get to that yet, I believe that part of the battle is in the next chapter but yeah, You didn't even mention how 'cool' the rehabs looked while rappelling down into the rebels hideout earlier - They start firing immediately and not downwards, but rather upwards TOWARDS EACH OTHER. Not to mention they get so close to each other they almost run into each other going down. :lol: I dont know how did I miss that! Nice catch! And now I'm contributing to this... Bah! Give yourself to the dark side :twisted: ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:15 pm ----------------------------------- * Some of the most cringe worthy lines from Robo. I mean cheese-us, what happened to Murphy, serriously. "Detroit Police,Identify yourself" and when he gets his fingers cut out he is saying that Otomo is arrested for destroying a police property? Man! Where is Murphy??? It feels like they just didn't know how to balance the human and robotic sides. Well, they sure didnt because there was no human side present. Robo is presented here as someone who only throws official robotic lines and someone who doesnt recognize jokes and cant even have a normla coversation and someone who, because of that, sounds like an idiot. For example, did Robo really believed that when he'll say 'identify yourself, youre arrested for destroying police rproperty blah blah blah' that Otomo will listen to him and comply? Then we have robo just sitting frozen like a robot, out of conversations and all that. And he doesnt feel any pain. Even at a very young age I liked Robocop character for both the visual design AND his personality. We connected with the character in the first movie and I was eager to see more of his (and Lewis') "adventures" . And we got that in R2, but in R3 the character is completely absent. Doesnt feel pain, anger, sadness and talks like GPS Instead they just went for pure comedy, much like Terminator3. Maybe I wouldnt be that harsh. R3 did have plenty of moments that bordered with parody but they also tried to have some serious moments too RoboCop2 has several similar short cold lines like "ladies, stay down." and "we can't have that" etc, but they were all delivered by Weller in such a manner it worked. I dont know if its because of Weller's performance, but I always felt like those lines were delivered in a half joking manner - GPS-Robo would say something like "please remain on the floor in the crouching position", and here we have "ladies, stay down". And with "we cant have that" I always felt that Robo's talking to that guy like to a retard, hence that tone in his voice and the choice of words. Like when talking to a little kid saying" oh really? and how big was that spaceship?". Yet again, half joking, knowing that theres no way hes gonna leave with a baby and just screwing around with him Personally i wouldn't want a Murphy that is TOO human, he needs to retain that certain short police lingo, Hmm. Interesting thought. I dont know if I agree or not. I mean, while I may want him to act official sometimes, I also want him to throw some Muprhy lines in there too. And when I would want him to be official at times, I sure wouldnt want him to act like robot. For me robocop was simply murphy trapped in this superstrong body and taking advantage of that. Not a robot ----------------------------------- Archive Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:30 pm ----------------------------------- Hmm. Interesting thought. I dont know if I agree or not. I mean, while I may want him to act official sometimes, I also want him to throw some Muprhy lines in there too. And when I would want him to be official at times, I sure wouldnt want him to act like robot. For me robocop was simply murphy trapped in this superstrong body and taking advantage of that. Not a robot I think Robo1 and Robo2 balance the dry RoboCop lines perfectly with Robo saying short lines to bad guys and occasionally talking longer lines with Lewis. I know a lot of people wanted Robo to become more human after the first movie but i think that would destroy what makes RoboCop what he is. He uses few to the point words and blow shit up. In between that he sits and feel sorry for himself. :) RoboCop:PD explored that human RoboCop, and, it turned into a total disaster. At least for me. In PD he never shuts up and just keep on talking in long boring sentences. Of course in Robo3 they just went over the top and EVERYTHING robo says is robotic and corny and that's not right either. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:40 pm ----------------------------------- Hmm. Interesting thought. I dont know if I agree or not. I mean, while I may want him to act official sometimes, I also want him to throw some Muprhy lines in there too. And when I would want him to be official at times, I sure wouldnt want him to act like robot. For me robocop was simply murphy trapped in this superstrong body and taking advantage of that. Not a robot I think Robo1 and Robo2 balance the dry RoboCop lines perfectly with Robo saying short lines to bad guys and occasionally talking longer lines with Lewis. I know a lot of people wanted Robo to become more human after the first movie but i think that would destroy what makes RoboCop what he is. He uses few to the point words and blow shit up. In between that he sits and feel sorry for himself. :) Well, I feel that Robo is very consistent in R1 and R2. The way he talks and acts and his no bullshit attude. Hell blow one guy and turn to another with some half humorous one liners (Your move creep, looking for me?). He grabs guys by their hair, picks them up by their noses, step on their feet etc. So I feel there was a realy good consistency between the first two movies in Robo's personality. He had a specific style for his one liners that were filled with black humor. I think those who think theres some big difference between the first two movies dont see the big picture - at the end of R1, robo is depressed because he pieces everything together, the entire situation and what happened to him etc. But when the action starts, we get back the brave no bullshit cop with one liners that Murphy was, and thats the Robo we see in R2. I find it interesting that Dekker studied R1 so well that he copied the same scenes and moves and elements and even the camera angles, and threw in so many throwbacks, yet he missed the single most important thing which was Robo having a personality and being able to feel emotions and physical pain. He totaly missed the mark with Robocop's portrayal ----------------------------------- Archive Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:44 pm ----------------------------------- I agree with that! :) Maybe I wouldnt be that harsh. R3 did have plenty of moments that bordered with parody but they also tried to have some serious moments too It's more that with Terminator3 everything Arnie says is there to make fun of the character and it's pretty much the same way with RoboCop3. They take that dry police lingo and make everything Robo say into a joke. Most of the GPS talk you mention is there as something to laugh at for the audience. Personally however, i just cry. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:50 am ----------------------------------- KGW, you hit it. Even the few lines that would remotely sound like Weller's Robo (You are making a Mistake and Dead or alive, you're coming with me) still feel forced and unnatural at times. You guys said it, Weller's RoboCop kept it real Dirty Harry-like, keeping his quips short and sweet, yet still having a robotic tone to 'em. R3 just fails at that entirely. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:59 am ----------------------------------- Next chapter: Airbourne * Old gramma shooting Uzi. Maybe, just maybe, a person can sucessfully use small handguns if he didnt have a training. But machine guns require training in both targeting and hadnling because they can easily misplace your shoulder or even break your arm. How come the gramma is so strong to keep Uzi in the proper position like Spec-Ops do, and firing like Rambo? * As mentioned by Stan, Cops using shotguns...from the roof * Its interesting that Rehabs didnt take all the weapons they found in Resistance's base and left the jetpack lying next to the self-turning-on TV so Robo can find it when he's gonna be crawling towards the TV * It seems like Dekker did everything Verhoeven tried hard not to. It seems like all the cheese Verhoeven struggled to avoid (and to everyone's suprise, very sucessfully did) Dekker brought in in this movie. From Lewis' long hairdo to Robo's robotic behavior and silly Inspector Gadget gadgets, now completed with...flying Robocop! ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:01 am ----------------------------------- KGW, you hit it. Even the few lines that would remotely sound like Weller's Robo (You are making a Mistake and Dead or alive, you're coming with me) still feel forced and unnatural at times. You guys said it, Weller's RoboCop kept it real Dirty Harry-like, keeping his quips short and sweet, yet still having a robotic tone to 'em. R3 just fails at that entirely. Yeah, the "Dead or Alive" line seemed out of place and forced, just to have a tie with original, like many other elements from R3. I think the only good and Murphy-like line in the movie was Robo's answer to McDagget: "By resisting arrest". ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:50 am ----------------------------------- Ok, lets finish it off Next chapter: Reverse Circuitry * How come Niko and Marie know Robo's in trouble? First of all, how do they know that he's in the building? And how the hell do they know in which room he is and where the room is located? * So Niko can reprogram super advanced Japanese androids in 20 seconds without even touching them, remotedly? Whaaa? * Whats the point of the selfdestructive device? Wait, so if the two robots will get destroyed, a huge bomb explodes? Why? I mean, whats the purpose of this? * Why is Mcdagget crawling towards the bomb? It seems like hes trying to turn it off, but why didnt he do so in the first place? Didnt he just said theres no turning it off and that theyre all dead? * Niko would easily have been burned by RoboCop's flight pack when she was hanging off it at the end. It isn't that big and Niko's legs would easily have gone down and past the flame holes. * It seems strange that RoboCop carries Marie out of the building in his arms, and lets Niko, a little girl, hang onto the back of him. When he is flying, it would have took an awful amount of strength to hang onto him, when he is travelling so fast and high in the air. Yeah, and I still cant get used to this image in a RoboCop movie http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/lovegunner/Batman/r3.jpg All its missing is Nikko screaming "To The Second Star On The Right! Neverland!" Something like this scene would be just unthinkable in the first two movies ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:10 am ----------------------------------- And the last one: Respect and Honor * Its interesting that Robo managed to fix his visor for the final scene of the movie * ending is just a dumb and shameless attempt to mirror the original ending. Pointless, contrived and forced. Robo is right tho - call him Robocop, cause it sure aint Murphy. R3 is an extremely flawed movie storywise, but its excuse is that its basically a cartoon but shot as live action movie. Cartoons dont make sense, everything is conveniently placed where its needed, plot movies without any basis on logic or reasonins and things happen just because. But the kiddie structure is not all. All the motifs and themes of the first two movies, the dark side of reality, the race for power in big corporations and a man trapped inside a machine are all gone. And so is the Murphy character and all the seriousness when we get flying robocop and ninjas. To sum it up, here are some quotes about R3 that I posted in different threads: "it feels like something being made because someone sees a successful format, rather than something they want to say" - avrev.com The transformation from ultra-violent gorefest to a kiddie flick (forgot the source) DVDVERDICT.COM "Robocop 3 finally lets the series down. It's more than just bad in terms of the franchise (like, say, Alien: Resurrection—not a bad movie, just a disappointing Alien movie)—it's a bad film all around. The fundamental problem with Robocop 3 is that, even beyond its PG-13 rating, it has been made specifically for young boys—it's Robocop for kids. Everything has been dialed down to the lowest common denominator, which would help explain the repeated moments of melodrama (every time a "good" character dies, he or she gets an impassioned closing line set to sad/swelling music), overblown sentiment (a Curly Sue-esque young orphan girl plays far too large a role in the proceedings), and cheap humor—who knew Robocop had been programmed to rattle off so many awful one-liners? The film feels terribly flat—on screen is non-stop spectacle, and yet there's no connection to any of it. That may be because Robocop 3 has no real story to tell, just a series of action beats, once again designed to elicit gasps of "Cooooool!" from 13-year old boys. It's a major departure from the slyness and sophistication of the first two films." DVD.NET describes it in a pill "A slap in the face to anybody who enjoyed the intelligent, multi-layered nuances of its predecessors, the three-quel was an abominable dumbing-down of the series. It strived to make the tragic Frankenstein-like hero into a kiddie-friendly merchandise mover. It failed, both on this and every other level." CINEMABLAND.COM was less subtle in its description "Robocop 3 is about as enjoyable as having a living, leprosy infected rat sown into your body and then feeling it as it slowly eats its way out of you, gradually bursting through your spine. Unlike Verhonven and Kershner who had precision instincts with action, Fred Decker has nothing, and I do mean nothing." DVDTown.com described R3's score as "not just forgettable but downright annoying" AgonyBooth site: "Anything RoboCop that doesnt involve Peter Weller is crap" DVDActive.com This is, without a doubt, the weakest of the three movies. Gone is the black humour and tongue in cheek ultra-violence of the first two films, only to be replaced by a sanitised version of our favourite crime fighting cyborg. It’s also fairly obvious that there is a different guy in the Robo suit, and he’s not up to the standard that Peter Weller set. The problem with this instalment is that it tries to pander to a younger audience, which isn’t what RoboCop is about. RoboCop is also too easily defeated in this film. The RoboCop of the first two movies would have made short work of the various villains in this instalment, but our Robo gets his butt kicked with alarming regularity. The dialogue is also poorly written, and some of the actors deliver inadequate performances. Overall this is a severe letdown, but one that you should at watch at least once, if only so as to appreciate the other two films more. whatdvd.net It’s shot like a TV show, written like a TV show and has Robocop befriending refugees, fighting a Japanese ninja robot and flying. The less said about this the better. DVDfile.com Gone is the pathos of the RoboCop character. Gone is the satirical edge that examined some of the extreme idiosyncrasies of American society. We're left with a rather toothless action adventure yarn that occupies RoboCop without having to give a thought to further character development. This is the weakest of the films and the last. IGN the plot is awful and takes all focus away from Murphy and his identity struggle, instead stringing together action sequence after action sequence. moviefreak.com Robocop 3 just never worked. In an attempt to be more of a comic book movie, the film ends up just being silly. By this point, the OCP Corporation has become a boring villain and the fascism that was introduced in the first sequel is far too over the top. Toning down the violence to make the film accessible to a wider audience may have been the film’s undoing. Also, the inclusion of the “add a kid” character Nikko is unnecessary. Nikko is in no way adorable or clever, despite an okay performance by Remy Ryan. Robert John Burke is okay as Robocop, but the script is so bad that he never has a chance to make anything of his role. ----------------------------------- Archive Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:46 am ----------------------------------- Great topic and a very funny and interesting read. :) A lot of stuff i never really thought about and it really brings Robo3 into a whole new dimension of stupid. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:29 pm ----------------------------------- * Whats the point of the selfdestructive device? Wait, so if the two robots will get destroyed, a huge bomb explodes? Why? I mean, whats the purpose of this? It was just as stated, a 'fail-safe' - In the case that Robo (or anyone else) defeated these particular Otomos, the thermal bomb would still, with good probability, be able to take out whoever defeated them. So even if they 'failed', the bomb acts as last ditch effort to counter-attack and destroy an adversary. An ace-up-the-sleeve, as it were. Think about the Predator and its self-destruct device and you get a better idea of the point of it. Plus I think the droids were meant to take on RoboCop by themselves, without anyone around - Like how the first Otomo attacked Robo at the abandoned rebel hideout - so as to minimize/eliminate additional casualties. That wasn't entirely the case here, though. * Why is Mcdagget crawling towards the bomb? It seems like hes trying to turn it off, but why didnt he do so in the first place? Didnt he just said theres no turning it off and that theyre all dead? No one ever says the explosion isn't really cancel-able. McDagget just says there ain't time to get away from it (Or at least, that was the context, if he didn't say that in so many words). I don't think that device he was crawling to was the bomb, but merely a control device - The actual Otomo droids themselves having the bomb(s) in them. In that regard, I would think McDagget was crawling towards the device to try and deactivate it. Pointlessly, stupidly, and in-vain of course, but still. Of course, it's really just a device (though a bit of a weak one in this case) to have the bad guy go out struggling and fighting as we often see in action movies. That's all. ----------------------------------- LuanaTF Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:37 pm ----------------------------------- Well, even though I'm emotionally attached to R3, I must admit that it's a pretty stereotyped movie for kids, kinda silly in most parts, and KGW really portrayed it all well in this thread. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:41 pm ----------------------------------- Well, even though I'm emotionally attached to R3, I must admit that it's a pretty stereotyped movie for kids, kinda silly in most parts, and KGW really portrayed it all well in this thread. You know, I like some flawed movies too. For example, I absolutely love 1989's Batman even though its loaded with flaws. But I still like it. ----------------------------------- LuanaTF Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:49 pm ----------------------------------- Yep. I guess it's just that when we grow up we look for more depth in movies we watch, unlike when we were younger. :) I like your summaries because you put all the flaws in words, KGW, but even though one can rationally dislike something, the emotional side always have another response. ;) R3 has been my only "link" to the first two movies for years, so it has a special meaning to me personally. And I'm a big fan of the '80s movies too, flawled or not. ^_^ ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:49 pm ----------------------------------- * Whats the point of the selfdestructive device? Wait, so if the two robots will get destroyed, a huge bomb explodes? Why? I mean, whats the purpose of this? It was just as stated, a 'fail-safe' - In the case that Robo (or anyone else) defeated these particular Otomos, the thermal bomb would still, with good probability, be able to take out whoever defeated them. So even if they 'failed', the bomb acts as last ditch effort to counter-attack and destroy an adversary. An ace-up-the-sleeve, as it were. . Im not sure if this is it. Kanemitsu asked McDagget if he has the device he send HIM, and mcdaget said it hasnt come to that yet. It jst doesnt make sense in this situation. People need to be moved so the construction of the investors can start. Robocop is iin their way supposedly so they sent 3 droids to destroy him. Only one follows him the first time tho, which is confusing in itself. So why would they nuke part of the city in case if they get destroyed with everyone around? * Why is Mcdagget crawling towards the bomb? It seems like hes trying to turn it off, but why didnt he do so in the first place? Didnt he just said theres no turning it off and that theyre all dead? No one ever says the explosion isn't really cancel-able. McDagget just says there ain't time to get away from it (Or at least, that was the context, if he didn't say that in so many words). I don't think that device he was crawling to was the bomb, but merely a control device - The actual Otomo droids themselves having the bomb(s) in them. In that regard, I would think McDagget was crawling towards the device to try and deactivate it. Pointlessly, stupidly, and in-vain of course, but still. Of course, it's really just a device (though a bit of a weak one in this case) to have the bad guy go out struggling and fighting as we often see in action movies. That's all Im not sure about that either. Mcdaggets pissed and says to Marie that the stupid slag activated the bomb and theyll all die. Seems like its irreversible, yet then it looks like it is because hes trying to reach it, contrary to his behavior and dialogue ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:50 pm ----------------------------------- And I'm a big fan of the '80s movies too, flawled or not. ^_^ Same with me. Most of the 80s movies seem silly now but I still like em a lot ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:02 pm ----------------------------------- Im not sure if this is it. Kanemitsu asked McDagget if he has the device he send HIM, and mcdaget said it hasnt come to that yet. It jst doesnt make sense in this situation. People need to be moved so the construction of the investors can start. Robocop is iin their way supposedly so they sent 3 droids to destroy him. Only one follows him the first time tho, which is confusing in itself. So why would they nuke part of the city in case if they get destroyed with everyone around? I think the thermal device(s) we're meant to be a absolute 'last-resort', hence why McDagget says 'It hasn't come to that yet, and it won't.' As for 'nuking everyone', that seems to a be concern that apparently isn't regarded at all in the movie. All I can say is, again, it was obviously intended to be used in as isolated an area as possible, and again, as a last-resort. Remember, most of Cadillac Heights was already cleared out, all the bomb would do is destroy some of it, which they were doing anyway. Only thing I can put it down as (and only in a massive over-simplification) is that it goes to not caring about the welfare of the city, which we're already aware of anyway. Yeah, it's stupid, but what isn't in this film? :b Im not sure about that either. Mcdaggets pissed and says to Marie that the stupid slag activated the bomb and theyll all die. Seems like its irreversible, yet then it looks like it is because hes trying to reach it, contrary to his behavior and dialogue Well, if it can be disabled, I would think it takes longer than 15 seconds to do so, hence why he's basically saying they're fucked. As for him trying to do so anyway, again, I just chalk that up to a weak-sauce attempt at making another ending where 'the bad guy goes down fighting'. Again, stupid, but what's new? :roll: Anyway, I agree, 80s action films have always had that special something to them. Even chees-o-rama movies like Commando I still enjoy quite a bit. '89 Batman is just fine. But that's another thing. :b In closing, good job on this KGW, though I have to say I personally started to get a bit annoyed when you droned on with the reviews. In any case I think you've made your point plenty, and I like the 'commentary'. Good job. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:31 pm ----------------------------------- In closing, good job on this KGW, though I have to say I personally started to get a bit annoyed when you droned on with the reviews. In any case I think you've made your point plenty, and I like the 'commentary'. Good job. Thanks. As for the reviews, I wanted to close the thread somehow and I thought the reviewers worded it all better than I would, so there they are. Anyway, if I missed something, I hope someone will chim in ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:31 pm ----------------------------------- Hate to be the one to dig up old shit. But you know me, I don't unless I have something GOOD to say... Last night, while being bored off my ass, I watched R3 on youtube. Yes, someone posted the entire movie (in 12 parts) on youtube. (Same guy also posted a HD version of R2, BTW, these are perfect for the PSP owner that has a youtube rip program and a video converter. I did, and can watch R2 on my PSP anytime I want without a disc. Pretty Sweet deal.) Anyways, I'm sitting there watching this abomination. And slowly, it hits me. R3 could have been a much different movie with a few changes. For instance, here's how I could take the same plot and make a better movie out of it. With just a few simple changes. Bare with me, this is gonna get good. -During the scene where Robo and Lewis are entering the Church to search for the squatters, there was a certain visual (mixed with Robert's performance) that struck me with an idea. What if...we took Robo (from the very beginning of the movie) and had turned him into a Rehab Officer? Meaning his mind was already wipped, and he was reprogrammed to search all the "suspected Rebel Locations" and eliminate them without a second thought. Women, Men, and children fall before a reprogrammed Robo. Just another way that OCP would do whatever it took to clear Old Detroit for demolition. It's another idea of Man vs Machine vs Evil Corporate Greed. One of the themes of the Original we all love so much. This version of (I guess at this point it'd be) MY RoboCop 3 would pretty much be like this... -RoboCop would no longer be in the Police station, he'd be kept under close watch at the OCP tower. -Lewis would be alive (but she'd still have to die, sorry) and working with a new partner. -RoboCop would be just a killing tool used by the Rehabs and OCP to clear Old Detroit and Specifically Cadillac Heights. -Eventually, Both RoboCop and Lewis would run into each other at the church scene (after Robo had dispatched the squatters and covered in their blood). But Murphy is gone, and doesn't remember her the way he did. (I expect shouts of outrage) -Lewis tries to reason with him. Seeing that doesn't work, she goes after a weak spot (this is assuming that in the past, Robo came up with a plan to shut him down should OCP do something that would put alot of people in danger. Such exposition could be explained in a flashback). RoboCop kills her before the procedure took complete effect. But it's not in vain. Just as she's dying, Murphy sparks back to consciousness and sees Lewis bloodied and gasping for breath. He rips of his helmet (And I mean RIPS it off, the Chinguard shredding into pieces), and goes to her. Then the scene pretty much plays out like normal. "Get them (this time meaning OCP) for me, Promise me." -McDagget, still being in this movie (except with less "Chum's" and stupid shit). -No stupid fucking Ninja's -The Nuetron Bomb that McDagget had is now attached to RoboCop's Self-Destruct. Thus the briefcase making a central plot piece. McDagget would have the switch and could dispatch RoboCop at any time. But doesn't, because OCP has further use for him, and tries to salvage the RoboCop Program by recapturing him. The Self-Destruct in more of a fail-safe. -So now, it's RoboCop vs the Rehabs. -The Rebels are still part of the movie, just in a lesser form. And the rest of the movie, pretty much plays out the same. Robo wins, OCP loses. And any loose ends can be tied up by saying, Dr Lazarus takes out the Nuetron Bomb and implants it into a pod that Murphy fires into the OCP building. Either way, my idea is still better than the shit-fest that was RoboCop 3. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:04 am ----------------------------------- I'm surprised I didn't comment on this earlier. And I'm almost surprised I'm commenting on this partially drunk. :b But I gotta says, those are great re-dos on the movie, Sean. Very nice. -Lewis tries to reason with him. Seeing that doesn't work, she goes after a weak spot (this is assuming that in the past, Robo came up with a plan to shut him down should OCP do something that would put alot of people in danger. Such exposition could be explained in a flashback). RoboCop kills her before the procedure took complete effect. But it's not in vain. Just as she's dying, Murphy sparks back to consciousness and sees Lewis bloodied and gasping for breath. He rips of his helmet (And I mean RIPS it off, the Chinguard shredding into pieces), and goes to her. . You know, though it could be construed as another one of those shameless R1 links/reuses, I think when Robo kills Lewis, he would have another flashback of both Murphy's death and 'Murphy, it's you.' and then would snap-back to being 'Murphy' as it were. Just a thought. Otherwise, great stuff Sean. I very much like the concept of treating him more like a complete robot and 'product' initially and then having him return to being Murphy. Granted one could say it's kind of a re-use of the original's plot, but still I agree, it would probably work better than what we have now. I still think my idea about a Corporate Wars-esque sequel and then Frank Miller's story for a third film would have done very well, but again, I like those ideas. :wink: ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:01 am ----------------------------------- Well, first and foremost, the one and first thing that would need to be redone was Robo's personality. Throw that weird, unhuman stiff robot out and get the witty Murphy again ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:57 am ----------------------------------- You know what, I reread this thread for the first time since I wrote it and I have to pat myself on the back - it was a pretty entertaining read :lol: ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:10 am ----------------------------------- You know what, I reread this thread for the first time since I wrote it and I have to pat myself on the back - it was a pretty entertaining read :lol: Don't bust your arm, man. :b ----------------------------------- Officer Harvey Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:13 am ----------------------------------- Besides the campy approach to Murphy, I was annoyed that they never really wrapped up the subplot with Murphy and his family. We're supposed to assume that he permenently left them behind but he still thinks of them. An even bigger plothole was that they never explain what happened to the Old Man. We know the real world explanation is that the actor didn't want to come back and lord knows I can't blame him. If they were going to get rid of the Old Man, at least explain where he went off to to tie up loose ends. But the property has a bad habit of leaving loose ends. I thought the Rehabs were an over-the-top addition, and felt like they were just thrown in there just to add to the 'blockbuster' feel of the movie. I despised the tone of the movie period, Orion decided to cave in to children's interests and basically kill the franchise for the dollar bill. Honestly, 2 wasn't that great either but it at least still had the adult overtunes and cult moments. 3 was just a merchandise tie-in and buried any momentum the character gained from the first movie that 2 didn't get. The little kid character was dumb, pretty much the whole movie was dumb. It came across as trying too hard at getting a family audience thus it was very cheesy and over-the-top. I thought a good portion of Frank Miller's ideas were retarded anyway and never thought he was a good choice to replace Miner and Neuminer. He is very cynical and negative and it came off in 2 and 3 (although toned down for the latter) no matter how hard Orion tried to alter. A cynic is the last one you want writing for a character that is ultimately about hope. I felt bad for Basil Poledouris who came back to score this film but sadly his musical talents can't even salvage the entire project. Referencing 2 again real quick, I can see why the studio butchered his original script and ideas because they SUCKED. The only things I got a kick out of in Miller's original draft were the shitload of gunfights, end. The end result was better than what he had written. 3, what was the point of reusing Miller's ideas if they weren't even good in the first place??? If they were going to do another one, why not just do an original story if you are only going to mess with material that you clearly hate? How logical is that??? No wonder Orion's gone. 3 could've been a chance for the franchise to recover after the weak (compared to the original) 2 but instead was exploited for money and only paved the way for worse things to come, namely the Series that succeeded it with its' kid tone and subsequently the property being seen insultingly as useful bantha fodder for lackluster miniseries (PD) and animated series (AC). If they are going to continue taking this character as a joke, I'll just stick to the comic books. They've come the closest to getting it right and continue to get better over time, namely the Dynamite series. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:46 am ----------------------------------- Besides the campy approach to Murphy, I was annoyed that they never really wrapped up the subplot with Murphy and his family. Actually it was one of the things that didnt bother me. He moved on a long time ago, R3 should be past that. We know from R2 that he realized that hed be doing more damage than good by being with them ir staying in touch with them. I think its nice that R3 at least showed him still thinking about them An even bigger plothole was that they never explain what happened to the Old Man. We know the real world explanation is that the actor didn't want to come back and lord knows I can't blame him. If they were going to get rid of the Old Man, at least explain where he went off to to tie up loose ends. But the property has a bad habit of leaving loose ends. Exactly. The Old Man was equivalent to Star Wars' Emperor. When I first saw R2 I was ecstatic that it had na open ending and couldnt wait to see how they will finally get him. Well, surprise, surprise I thought the Rehabs were an over-the-top addition, and felt like they were just thrown in there just to add to the 'blockbuster' feel of the movie. I know, they were like a weak Stormtrooper imitation. Faceless and not so intellligent I thought a good portion of Frank Miller's ideas were retarded anyway and never thought he was a good choice to replace Miner and Neuminer. Actually I disagree. I think the ideas that Neumeier and Miner had for the sequels were outright ridiculous and plain dumb. Its one of those very, very few instances where I was happy that the original makers did not return. Miller is a good writer, what happened with R3 I think is simply Dekker's rewrites. Dekker to this day remains the biggest fan of the movie ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:07 pm ----------------------------------- Actually I disagree. I think the ideas that Neumeier and Miner had for the sequels were outright ridiculous and plain dumb. Its one of those very, very few instances where I was happy that the original makers did not return. Miller is a good writer, what happened with R3 I think is simply Dekker's rewrites. Dekker to this day remains the biggest fan of the movie Bah, I disagree with that disagreement - I think some of their ideas were quite interesting. Hell, if you've seen the early shit Miller wrote up, you'd say the same thing, because his early draft/story is also inane, psychotic, and ultimately unfilmable. I preferred Neumeier and Miner's base ideas over Miller's, mainly because they had more intriguing facets to them, and ultimately seemed more complex and interesting. But indeed, they too were insanely wacky and un-doable. But for the most part, it could easily have been worked into something pretty good. If they were able to make Miller's shit into something filmable, sure. Could it have been better than Miller's ideas? Possibly. Again, it would at least have been different and a little more intriguing, at least to me. Of course obstinacy on both the writers and the studios part prevented anything being made out of Neumeier and Miner's ideas. Still, to this day, I would have liked to see what they could have done. As for Miller, I won't say his ideas were 'retarded', that's a bit harsh for me. They were crazy and childish in some respects, but that's just how the guy is with his writing it seems. Plus him being a cynic is true, and it shows in his storytelling. Doesn't make him a bad writer, but for a base story and character like RoboCop, perhaps he was not the most ideal choice. He did an alright job, I won't say he was the best choice to secede Neumeier and Miner period, but I guess was probably the best to do so under the circumstances. Nonetheless, as KGW said, he can't be held fully responsible for R3. I never did like the 'throw-away' attitude with regards the Old Man, but that's just one of a couple of small things buried under the handful of big things I dislike about R3. Overall, Harvey said it, MGM screwed with the whole atmosphere of the movie, toning it into something that the original was not; it destroyed the 'feel' the original film established. R2 at least kept that tone and continued the atmosphere of the first, and thus I will always consider it the superior sequel, despite Miller's own wacky, over-negative stamp on it, among other, considerably smaller, faults. R3 is fail, no question about that. They brought in a sequel that disregarded almost anything good or even noteworthy about the universe and style the original film created. It shows a film that is in my view not a RoboCop film but just a film with RoboCop in it. It just was not in the same vein, and it's clear it didn't try to be. And that's what shows more than anything in the final analysis. ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:59 pm ----------------------------------- I think the ideas that Neumeier and Miner had for the sequels were outright ridiculous and plain dumb. It was a very early draft so it is uncertain in what direction the final script would have taken. Overall, the idea of zapping Robo into the future and ditching all the characters from the first movie is provoking, ballsy, and could have turned out really bad or perhaps a very interesting sequel. The problem with playing it safe with a sequel is that there's too much we have already seen and not enough NEW stuff to please the viewer. I really like Robo2 but we can't argue that characters like Reed and Lewis served their purpose in the first movie but got redundant in the sequels. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:24 am ----------------------------------- Bah, I disagree with that disagreement - I think some of their ideas were quite interesting. I remember hearing about Corporate Wars for the first time and thinking its a hoax, that its some kind of a joke made up by the internet and that in no way it could be legit. But later on when I found out I was chocked. I couldnt believe Neumeier, a guy who co-wrote such great, serious and deep sory as RoboCop would even think about a concept that to me sounded like a fanfic from a 10 year old. It seemed as ridiculous and unfitting as Highlander II to Highlander. Then as years went by, I realized that script plays a huge part of course, but not quite as bug as I thought in the overall scheme of things. Ultimately, its more about how its presented and portrayed through the eye and the vision of the director. Robocop could have really end up as a cheesy 80s robot movie, but with Verhoeven's unique personality and 100% serious take on the story it became a classic it is today. Same goes for Alien, which was ultimately just another 70s space monster movie. With unique vision and serious approach the script can turn into a truly unique vision. Same script can spawn 2 completely different movies. My point is that Verhoeven is really the person that I would call a mastermind behind RoboCop if I could point out just one guy. And later on when Starship Troopers came out (which I realy didnt like and call Beverly Hills 90210 in space), I could now see how Neumeier ability to write something that , well, wouldnt have much quality I would say. I think the ideas that Neumeier and Miner had for the sequels were outright ridiculous and plain dumb. It was a very early draft so it is uncertain in what direction the final script would have taken. Overall, the idea of zapping Robo into the future and ditching all the characters from the first movie is provoking, ballsy, and could have turned out really bad or perhaps a very interesting sequel. Its is ballsy and provoking but theyre not often good qualities. Look at the track records of sequels. If youre doing a full 180 with the story and do anything but what the audience wanted to see and turning the entire thing into something barely identifiable with what youve seen, its not good. Like Terminator Salvation for example. Instead of permanently dark future with constant battles and rat eating, starving refugees in hideouts, and Blade Runnerish constructions and machines, we got a bright Mad Max type of a movie with clean and well equipped human army, Power Ranger type villains, hybrids and Office like buildings for terminators, and all kinds of thing that dont belong there. I think the mix of both is great, like with T2 for example, but not something so unrelated. RoboCop, despite being a satire, was heavily grounded in reality. It was one of the most realistically portrayed scifi movies ever. It felt like its our reality, like the characters are so real and identifiable. It was a real world with real people and felt so real and low key in its futuristic portrayal that the scifi elements like ED and Robo sunk in and felt real too. Robocop being dusted and waking up in some distant armageddonish future is just utterly silly IMO and going against what RoboCop had done and was. The problem with playing it safe with a sequel is that there's too much we have already seen and not enough NEW stuff to please the viewer. I really like Robo2 but we can't argue that characters like Reed and Lewis served their purpose in the first movie but got redundant in the sequels. I completely disagree. I think once you get attached to the characters you wanna see them, you feel more comfortable then. The first movie takes its time and works hard for you to get attached and sink into this world and get to know it and the people in it. Its good to see the sequel being something new and different , but also being a natural extension and continuation of the story. I wanted to see Han Solo, Leia, Chewie and others in Episode V. I was attached to them. Luke alone wouldnt do it for me. Thats one of the reasons why prequels didnt work, it was a different setting with different characters save one, there was no connection this way. Same like with Corporate Wars Hell, if you've seen the early shit Miller wrote up, you'd say the same thing, Well to be honest Im not familiar with the early script I won't say he was the best choice to secede Neumeier and Miner period I disagree. I think it was terrific of Orion to pick a well known and acllaimed writer (even if a comic writer) instead of some unknown Overall, Harvey said it, MGM screwed with the whole atmosphere of the movie, toning it into something that the original was not; it destroyed the 'feel' the original film established. And it ultimately did the opposite of what Verhoeven wanted - it went over the top with Robo (flying, exchanging arms, robotic behavior), presented characters as Hollywood starlets (Lewis' goldie locks) and presented cartoony characters (CEO, Ninja droids) and loads of stereotypes, as pointed out in this thread It shows a film that is in my view not a RoboCop film but just a film with RoboCop in it And not even that, since RoboCop doesnt act like the robo from the other 2 movies at all. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:40 pm ----------------------------------- Again, we can't say what a finished 'Corporate Wars' would have been like - I've always said it's main problem was indeed the setting, and that it's base story, re-worked, could still have been pretty good. I actually have a feeling it could have been more similar to it's closest final form, the Series pilot episode - Which kept several of Corporate Wars' elements yet was more contemporary with the timeline of R1 (sorta). And keeping the timeline close would allow the characters to stay, etc. Outside of that, the base story had several avenues that I would have liked to seen/explore in a RoboCop film, but again that's just me. Wacky as CW is, it is just a first draft. The original drafts of Robo's script had stuff that was also very different with what we got as a finished product. Same for R2. A good example of an 'early version' R2 would be Miller's RoboCop comic, if you would like a reference. All of this stuff about Corporate Wars I've posted numerous times, so I won't repeat myself further on the subject. If you are interested about it, you may want to read my Corporate Wars topic. Otherwise, I think it's kinda off-topic, so lets move on. I disagree. I think it was terrific of Orion to pick a well known and acllaimed writer (even if a comic writer) instead of some unknown. Terrific of Orion to hire a writer that they second-guessed, underrated, and 'helped' the whole time? I guess so, heh. :b But as I said, Miller did fine considering. Ahem, again, moving on - It shows a film that is in my view not a RoboCop film but just a film with RoboCop in it And not even that, since RoboCop doesnt act like the robo from the other 2 movies at all. Even if he did, the dynamic of the film wasn't the same. Good as Weller was, I don't think he could have improved R3 from what it was any, at least by himself. The film itself went against the world of the original, even if you take RoboCop out, the film still doesn't 'feel' like a RoboCop film. The wardrobe, weapons, props, and indeed the world environment in the movie itself had a distinct 'post-present' type of future look and tone to it, something that was almost deliberately avoided in R3, outside of Robo himself and maybe a couple of other things. But I consider all that a production/production-design fault more than anything. I will agree a big part of that special 'feel' of RoboCop came from Verhoeven, as tones of it are present in Total Recall as well as Starship Troopers. Kershner and Miller did a good job of emulating that atmosphere, but in the end, Jon Davison was the final pivotal piece in the equation, the man that combined with Verhoeven, Neumeier and Miner, also was a critical part of making R1 be what it is, and the man that helped R2 become something that would respect it. R3 didn't have any of that, and despite their best efforts they were making a mediocre film and that's what they got. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:14 am ----------------------------------- Even if he did, the dynamic of the film wasn't the same. Good as Weller was, I don't think he could have improved R3 from what it was any, at least by himself. The film itself went against the world of the original, even if you take RoboCop out, the film still doesn't 'feel' like a RoboCop film. The wardrobe, weapons, props, and indeed the world environment in the movie itself had a distinct 'post-present' type of future look and tone to it, something that was almost deliberately avoided in R3, outside of Robo himself and maybe a couple of other things. But I consider all that a production/production-design fault more than anything. I will agree a big part of that special 'feel' of RoboCop came from Verhoeven, as tones of it are present in Total Recall as well as Starship Troopers. Kershner and Miller did a good job of emulating that atmosphere, but in the end, Jon Davison was the final pivotal piece in the equation, the man that combined with Verhoeven, Neumeier and Miner, also was a critical part of making R1 be what it is, and the man that helped R2 become something that would respect it. R3 didn't have any of that, and despite their best efforts they were making a mediocre film and that's what they got. I fully agree ----------------------------------- Mephisto Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:03 am ----------------------------------- They've come the closest to getting it right and continue to get better over time, namely the Dynamite series. Shiiiiit. :roll: You mean "Ms. Odenkirk and the Enforcement Droids", cause that shit Dynamite spews out sure as hell isn't about RoboCop. Frank Miller's stuff at least had RoboCop as a central character, and it didn't have massive Ed-209 bastardizations running around blowing shit up and stepping on people like a bad Godzilla parody. I was actually into what you were saying about Robocop 3 until I read that comment about Dynamite comics getting it right. That killed it for me. Frank Miller's stuff looks like a damn masterpiece compared to Dynamite's garbage. I don't really care for Frank's stuff, but at least it's about, oh you know....ROBOCOP, and not some dumb bitch OCP exec constantly saying fuck while talking about her tits and ass, with her fleet of Enforcement Droids running around doing dumb shit. Yeah, I'd pay $3.50 an issue to read about that. :roll: ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:42 pm ----------------------------------- In all fairness, Meph, Harvey's post was 2 1/2 months ago, before this last issue (or even 2 issues ago?). But yeah, Dynamite hasn't really doing a good job of making RoboCop 'not a joke' lately. Still, R3 had Robo and it failed anyway. At least Dynamite has an excuse. :b ----------------------------------- Archive Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:03 pm ----------------------------------- I think it would have been interesting if they had taken a indiana jones/james bond approach and made the movies stand on their own, although with some familiar characters here and there. Robo2 kinda does this, but they could have thrown in a new parter instead of Lewis. The absolute worst part of Robo3 is the way they shove all those references and stuff from robo1 in your mouth all the time. They should have concentrated on doing their own robo movie instead of reusing what other people had done. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:19 am ----------------------------------- I think it would have been interesting if they had taken a indiana jones/james bond approach and made the movies stand on their own, although with some familiar characters here and there. Robo2 kinda does this, but they could have thrown in a new parter instead of Lewis. . I kinda feel both R2 and R3 do this actually. They move on to the next set of villains and new storyline and end it in the same movie. At the same time theyre more connected than Bond/Jones , at least R2 since it answers some burning questions that R1 left - whats next for Murphy, will he cope with his destiny, what we'll he do about his family, will they create more Robocops - why or why not, and more. Of course R2 followed a more classic trilogy approach and just like Empire it had an open ended ending, ironically, as we just mentioned, R3 doesnt even touch the highest ranked villain of the series and dismisses what was left to said. So pretty much only R3 is fully a Bond type of a separate story, detached completely from the other 2. Edit: on the other hand R3 does wrap up everything by destroying OCP from every angle ----------------------------------- Archive Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:22 am ----------------------------------- I don't know, i think Robo3 has too many ties & stolen scenes from the first movie to really stand on it's own. It's not a really different enough movie as it still deals with robo facing another robot enemy, a previous character dying and robo felling sorry for himself. I think it would have been fun if the robo movies had a more striking difference in style and story, like the "mission impossible" movies that really stand out as different movies. In that sense the "corporate wars" script would really have done this but zipping robo to the far future isn't something i would personally like to see. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:04 am ----------------------------------- I don't know, i think Robo3 has too many ties & stolen scenes from the first movie to really stand on it's own. Oh I certainly agree with that I think it would have been fun if the robo movies had a more striking difference in style and story, like the "mission impossible" movies that really stand out as different movies. But arent they already? The first one was about Murphy's resurrection, vengeance and finding his identity The second one was about something completely else with the exception of the closure with the family. It was about taking down the psychotic new drug gang and then facing a giant cyborg with an insane brain The third one was about Robo joining street fighters and fighting for freedom of Detroit against OCP's stormtroopers and ninjas. While R3 is indeed overly sucking up to the original and making constant winks and homages, its still a very much unrelated story The only thing that really joints all 3 is OCP as the puppet master ----------------------------------- Archive Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:43 am ----------------------------------- Your probably right, i just think it would have been neat if they took even wider liberties with the movies and took it further. Like Terminator being almost a horror movie while T2 is a action piece. Expanded the style/world a little more. But apparently it is a difficult thing to do. With all the movies, tv series and comic, most of them deal with the same issues and situations. making it a little stale. Perhaps that is why it is taking so long for a new Robo movie, it is a difficult character to invent and infuse NEW ideas to. Perhaps Aronofsky was onto something there. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:43 pm ----------------------------------- Hmm, I dont know, I think R2 IS that fresh sequel. Same kind of blueprint but new look and fresh feel. Unless you mean like almost a genre change like with T2 or Aliens, but it seems like only Cameron can do that successfully without doing a complete 180 and straying too far ----------------------------------- Archive Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:00 pm ----------------------------------- Yeah something like that. I think it would have been interesting to have a "aliens" kind of sequel to RoboCop, style wise. Aliens3 for that matter also reinvented the style, and although I'm not a fan of the movie i respect the decision to try something complete new. The sad thing is that Robo2 COULD have been that "aliens" if only they had gotten more of the original script in there. All the character pieces with Lewis would have given her a reason to be there and the final battle with RoboCain VS two ED209's would have been a truly epic finale. Now i still love Robo2, but one can't wonder what could have been, right? ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:07 pm ----------------------------------- Well, Im completely unfamiliar with the original script. However, as many can tell already, I am and always have been a huge fan of R2 ever since it came out so I really wouldnt want to change it. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:51 pm ----------------------------------- Archive said it. Lewis' extra inclusion was one of the few positives of that muddled mess Miller started with, her character had a greater purpose there. I wish they had stuck with that somewhat. Of course they fudged the entire story in the first place and wanted more action in the film instead of character development and involvement so that's that. I still don't see why they didn't have the ED vs RC fight, that would not have hurt anything. Bah. I agree with Archive, part of R3s 'extra' link to the original was all the R1 carryovers, such as the gray suit, return of the Delta City subplot, etc. The blue suit, cheesy as it looks at times, was one of the nice 'new' departures R2 had from the original, among other things. Keeping a balance of fresh and familiar in a sequel is always tricky - From a production standpoint, it's really mainly keeping a balance between making the film interesting and keeping it commercially viable. It's hard in any case. Oftentimes sequels stray to being too familiar, to keep their base audience happy and be a 'safer bet' in terms of profitability, whereas other sequels that try to be different usually try too hard and deviate too much - they are sometimes interesting and neat, but are too different and they alienate the base audience, as with the second Highlander, Alien3, etc. I agree that RoboCop is a progressive story that shouldn't require very strong ties to the original. The 'Dirty Harry' films are being played on AMC this week, and I find them, like Indy series (and original Star Wars trilogy to an extent), to be good films that, outside of the main character and a handful of other related things, are still mostly independent of each other, in terms of each film's setting, plot, and so on. Said movies of course have similar themes/undertones, and of course characters, but each film's situation and environment was in some way different with each movie. On T2, though the style is different, it worked fine mainly because it reused a winning formula - a great, if simplistic story with loads of awesome effects. The plot is almost exactly the same as the original, with mostly the same characters; it's basically a direct continuation. Aliens was a bit riskier on Cameron's part, but turned out quite well. Corporate Wars, reworked, could have made a great 'independent' RoboCop sequel, but that was not to be. The RoboCop 2 we got still provided a good sequel that struck a decently nice balance between keeping the same stuff and having plenty of different things as well. It could have done maybe a bit better but not much, and it easily could have been much worse. RoboCop 3 didn't have that same balance to it. Like most sequels, R3 relied on too much connection with the original film, relied on being 'too familiar' to help it be more commercial, among other things. Again, a mediocre line-of-thought that led to a mediocre film. ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:44 pm ----------------------------------- I still don't see why they didn't have the ED vs RC fight, that would not have hurt anything. Bah. I agree with its exclusion. Weve already seen that in the first movie, so doing it again when the previous movie had just done that would be a major headscratcher The blue suit, cheesy as it looks at times, was one of the nice 'new' departures R2 had from the original, among other things. Plus it was a color of clean, stainless steel while the silver is the color if iron. I thought steel was more suitable , and I liked the makeover anyway. Kershner gave Darth Vader the exact same one - the color was deeper (it was now pure pitch black all over, including eyes) and the entire suit was as shiny as shiny can be beautifully reflecting everything. RoboCop 3 didn't have that same balance to it. Like most sequels, R3 relied on too much connection with the original film, relied on being 'too familiar' to help it be more commercial, among other things. Precisely. It focused too much trying to suck up to the fans of the original doing all those homages instead of focusing where focus was required, which was plot, logic, characters and overall tone and style. Btw, I noticed that I didnt mention that RoboCop is clearly NOT a main character in R3. This is a major thing, I dont know how come I didnt pointed it out before. This is one of the main reasons why R3 feels so wrong and out of place with the other 2 movies. This time Robo is a side character and Nikko, or perhaps Nikko and Marie if you will, are clearly the main characters of the story with Robo being a side character, or more so a side gadget. The story follows Nikko from the beginning and is told from her perspective ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:12 pm ----------------------------------- ^ Well, that's what I was alluding to when I said, 'Not a RoboCop movie, but a movie with RoboCop in it', but yeah, you got it. I think the ED vs RC fight would have just been a great mindless bit of action and destruction to view for a minute - It wouldn't have had any substance to add really but it certainly wouldn't have taken anything away from the film either. Hell, why not? ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:44 am ----------------------------------- I put everything in one post in a blog I just started - http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/2010/12/robocop-3-faults-scene-by-scene.html Added screenshots and funny captions too. Since same arguments and conversations pop out once in a while I decided Ill put some of the stuff I wrote here in this blog so then I can just refer someone to the url instead of repeating the long answer