----------------------------------- ElectricSoul Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:34 pm RoboCop: PD - What went wrong? ----------------------------------- http://www.robocoparchive.com/pd/pd26.jpg In retrospect this could've been a great RoboCop mini-series, how could such potential go wrong? The basic storyline is good, RoboCop 10 years after activation, instead we get what amounts to a lousy soap opera. I felt the need to vent some disgust at what i was told was "a return to the dark, edgy and violent" universe that Robocop dwelled in the original film 10 years after activation,Murphy finds himself unwanted and outdated,while having to deal with not only a growing crime problem but the re-emergence into his life of 2 ghosts from the past : John Cable,his former partner and best friend,and James Murphy,his own son who has now become just another greedy executive of OCP....while at the same time OCP finds itself under siege from the inside,as a growing group of young executives plot a coupe that will lead to the greatest threat Delta City has ever faced as a sentient program built to make the City a paradise threatens to turn it to hell thanks to a madman from the past.....Can Murphy stop these threats while dealing with the resurrection of his friend as an enemy,and reconnect with his son before it's too late? ...i've found very little good in this besides Page Fletcher's Alex Murphy ,the RoboCable suit,and Damian,and the past between Murphy and Cable......the bad...wow... Page Fletcher's RoboCop sucked,period...movements,the way he said his lines,stature..... every one of the cast seemed on Prozac except for Cable.... special effects blew.... everytime Robo got hit with bullets he would start having seizures..what the hell? Bone Machine had potential as a vigilante in DC....instead he's a small footnote.... the whole subplot involving the Legion virus and Kaydick almost feels like it was from another screenplay,and just shoehorned in... (Edited for Frontpage) ----------------------------------- Justice Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:06 pm ----------------------------------- There is one answer and one only: Budget... While I am not a fan of huge budgets, Robocop does demand at least a reasonable one so you don't go all "Power Rangers" Bone Machine was a piece of crap... The name alone reminds me of a WWE wrestler. And lets not start about the costume and weapons. Seriously, the only person wearing a suit in Robocop should be the actor who plays Robocop. The rest should be either Stop Motion or CGI. Or regular folks... ----------------------------------- ElectricSoul Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:18 pm ----------------------------------- guess to me it felt like a tv show,not the "four feature-length movies!" as advertised....you're right,budget had a lot to do with this....not being able to hire any name/decent actors,not being able to do FX right....i mean,why bother? if you're not even going to attempt to do Robo right,don't do him at all.... ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:00 pm ----------------------------------- Imagine if it was exactly the same...except Weller was Robocop. Then it would have been fine. ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:38 pm ----------------------------------- I am not PD fan .. but my question is .. why they did not make just one part one film instead 4 the parts ... such budget would be better for one film than for another .. or they needed series ?! I saw it just one time .. maybe I should watch it again and get other opinions .. but as I remember my first reaction when I saw the Fletcher ( as Robocop without helmet I made such face :shock: and said .. oh Jesus why this ?! ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:53 pm ----------------------------------- 4 movies equals 4 times the sales! ----------------------------------- Law Giver Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:54 pm ----------------------------------- This program was low budget imitation. ----------------------------------- Archive Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:47 pm ----------------------------------- My lasting thoughts about the series is that it could have been so much better if they just had put some effort in how RoboCop is supposed to move and react. A mime expert was hired on the movies for a reason, you can't just put anybody in the suit and think it's gonna look good. I am not PD fan .. but my question is .. why they did not make just one part one film instead 4 the parts . They had the tv-series rights, so they had to split it up in parts. As a result they could use, more or less, nothing from the movies, no ED-209 etc. ----------------------------------- JohnBoyAdvance Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:58 pm ----------------------------------- Well, amongst other things: The basic story was terrible. It felt like a lengthened, darker Robocop 3, with some bargain basement fan fiction thrown in, just for fun! I thought it ignored pretty much all the Robocop movies and created its own canon. I might have missed something though. Johan's explanation might have explained some things though. But still, I though there was no real connection to the movies. I can understand ignoring 3. Maybe 2, But 1? It just felt dull to watch. It was slow. Mostly because they had 4 movies to do on 25p. One of the lasting impressions that I have was the way poorly rendered bullet sparks hit Robo and he moves backwards trying to karate chop them or something. And yet no damage was ever made to the suit. :roll: The Legion virus was a stupid idea. Bloody sci fi... >_> The Middle East slum style street in the middle of Detroit was stupid. Why wouldn't OCP occasionally update Robo's technologies, just in case they are stuck for spare parts? That's all I can think of. Also, RoboPimp, I think it would have been bad, whoever was in the suit. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:25 pm ----------------------------------- Also, RoboPimp, I think it would have been bad, whoever was in the suit. Well, maybe not great, but it still would have been loads better. Fletcher is an ass. ----------------------------------- Josh Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:58 am ----------------------------------- I think my main problem was Fletcher. If someone else was in the suit, say Eden, it might be a bit more watchable... ----------------------------------- DoktorNo Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:38 am ----------------------------------- I did't watched this movie, so I restrain from any comment about it, but when I saw screenshot of "Bone Machine", I couldn't restrain myself from laughing, and after that, from embarassment... ----------------------------------- ElectricSoul Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:46 pm ----------------------------------- you think he looks bad in the suit...you should see him UNDER the suit.....i swear i used to live next door to him.... ----------------------------------- Kamen Rider Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:12 pm ----------------------------------- I think my main problem was Fletcher. If someone else was in the suit, say Eden, it might be a bit more watchable... I agree. That was the same problem I had with PD. I think they should have tried really hard to get Eden to wear the suit one last time. I recently watched the pilot movie for RoboCop The Series, and thought it wasn't that bad, Eden performed well as RoboCop, yeah, he didn't kill anybody, but that's how TV was at the time, I believe Walker, Texas Ranger was considered the most violent show on TV at the time, I'm sure had RoboCop The Series been made now, it could be as violent as 24. Also, if they weren't allowed to use sound effects from the movie because of having only the rights to The Series, then they could have at least had used The Series sound effects, at least the sound effects for the movements. ----------------------------------- ElectricSoul Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:46 pm ----------------------------------- yeah,still can't understand why in the hell they thought an actor 5'8" or so would be good....what scares me even more is that Fletcher was the first choice for the TV series!!! :shock: ----------------------------------- Law Giver Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:08 am ----------------------------------- I am 5'9", no way Fletcher is 5'8". ----------------------------------- ElectricSoul Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:19 am ----------------------------------- I am 5'9", no way Fletcher is 5'8". i'm not exactly sure how tall he is...just a guess.... ----------------------------------- Josh Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:12 am ----------------------------------- 5'5"-5'7" My best guess... ----------------------------------- Kamen Rider Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:03 am ----------------------------------- Yeah Fletcher is definately somewhere between 5'5" and 5'7. I mean Maurice Dean Wint is definately in the 6' area. ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:57 pm ----------------------------------- I really think I am taller than Fletcher also my dog standing on two legs is bigger :mrgreen: I think my main problem was Fletcher yeah agree as well .. the suit was too big for him ( as when you will buy too big t-shirt or something ) sorry Page but you really dont have any good thing what should have good actor for Robocop ! ( maybe one thing is right the blue eyes ) haha I bet every one boy from archive would be better for the role ! even one thing what I a little hate in the PD .. and it is the music ! oh that remind me more an wild west than music for Robocop .. what happened ? they did not have rights or money to use something from the Basils music ?! :huhwhat: ----------------------------------- RoboStud Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:03 pm ----------------------------------- Camera angle is another problem they have in the mini-series. Since Fletcher is so short, he looke like 5 feet 5 to me. They should have film him from low angle up. I remember in Robo 1 movie, all shots of Robocop is film with camera place really low and aim high to create larger than life effect on Robocop, Peter Weller is not the tallest person either but the camera angle makes him look big and tall. ----------------------------------- AlexMurphy Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:20 am ----------------------------------- There is one answer and one only: Budget... While I am not a fan of huge budgets, Robocop does demand at least a reasonable one so you don't go all "Power Rangers" Actually Power Rangers uses source footage from a previous series in Japan, called Sentai. Long running now. The whole point of the show is to make it with a budget. Right now, Disney COULD do without the footage from sentai, but since it's cheaper to do it this way, they go with a cheaper route. Clearly, the same was for Robocop: Prime Directives. If they could do it for cheap, they well. All four of the PD "films" were made for less than budget of the original Robocop film. That sounds good...on a financial stand point. I really didn't like Fletcher's performance as Robocop, especially the way he moved in the suit. Richard Eden would of been a better choice, cause at least he has experience in the role. ----------------------------------- CAIN MKII Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:06 pm ----------------------------------- This show was just genuine crap. It was doom from the very begining because they wanted to make some family entertainement TV show out of a dark , hardcore SF franchise. Just for money. For me it doesn't even exist in the robocop universe, just like R3. ----------------------------------- * * * * * Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:07 am ----------------------------------- This mini series sucked! Most of the scenes in the show are so ridiculously long and drawn out. Bonemachine was of course stupid. The guy that played as Murphy/Robocop sucked. That guy looked so weird without the robo helmet on. The storyline did have some potential. I especially liked the part where Murphy and his son reunited. But all in all it could have been better.....................................WAY BETTER! ----------------------------------- Philip17 Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:06 pm ----------------------------------- hummm :roll: well, in my opinion there were two major problems! one was the budget, I think it was to small for this kind of project, so that the special effects could be good! The other problem was the actor that played robocop (Page Fletcher), I think that were better actors for this kind of series.... :? Although, the series have a good line of story, I know many of you didn´t like RoboCable, but I think it was a "fresh" prespective :b My first reaction to prime directives was just like Nika´s :shock: But the more I watched it, the more I studied this series (not paing atention to special effects, or robo movements), I realize this is a little better than I think it was... :robo2: The story is not has horrible has some of us think, it was interesting to see the prespective of robocop has an obselete robot, and has a man.... to see his former partner.... etc. (forget about bone machine xD, that was dumb) But if they had a bigger budget, we could pay more experienced actors and do better special effects... :robo1: Also there is one problem, Fletcher is too small :b THE ONLY GOOD AND ALSO SMALL ROBOCOP IS MURPH38 :robo1: (I am a fan of his work :b ) P.S.: Nika I just loved that foto of yours!!! :mrgreen: That hat looks very good on you :b Best reggards... Philip :mrgreen: ----------------------------------- Robo_1 Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:07 pm ----------------------------------- Budget was a big part of it, but I'm just getting sick of watching Robo get his ass kicked, or his life saved by everyone else. From Robocop 3 on, Robocop has lost a lot of his unstoppable feel. PD went from him being a tank on two legs to a tricycle. Robocop 1 showed he was vulnerable to attack, but not a push over. I just want more of that Robocop 2 feel, where at the start of the film, he walks out, unscathed from a blown up Police car, and wipes everyone out, before mercilessly pursuing his investigation. The end of Robocop 3 still makes me feel nauseous, and save for a precious few scenes, Robocop: PD continued that approach. In short, I just want to see Robocop kick some ass, instead of always being on the end of an ass kicking in an attempt to show his "vulnerable" side. ----------------------------------- Philip17 Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:48 pm ----------------------------------- Robo_1 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:07 pm Budget was a big part of it, but I'm just getting sick of watching Robo get his ass kicked, or his life saved by everyone else. From Robocop 3 on, Robocop has lost a lot of his unstoppable feel. PD went from him being a tank on two legs to a tricycle. Robocop 1 showed he was vulnerable to attack, but not a push over. I just want more of that Robocop 2 feel, where at the start of the film, he walks out, unscathed from a blown up Police car, and wipes everyone out, before mercilessly pursuing his investigation. The end of Robocop 3 still makes me feel nauseous, and save for a precious few scenes, Robocop: PD continued that approach. In short, I just want to see Robocop kick some ass, instead of always being on the end of an ass kicking in an attempt to show his "vulnerable" side. I also agree that in PD he is allways gettting his ass kicked, but one thing is right when Damian talks to Sarah: "robocop, has been blow to bits, shoot, put on fire, and he keeps going and going!" Robocop is unstoppable!!! :robo1: ----------------------------------- DJR2096 Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:19 pm ----------------------------------- Robocop PD :lol: God I remmeber buying parts one and two, Getting home and watching them :x I then put them on e-bay for sale the same day :wink: It was just.........well.......horrible!!! No sign of the murphy I know and love. It was a sad day :ohdear: I still to this day have never seen the last two parts. Bye the way who is taller out of me and Murphy38? he's 158 CM tall, and I'm 5'4" ----------------------------------- vegasrobo Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:19 pm ----------------------------------- They made it..That was the main problem...It only crapped on our Hero. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:43 am ----------------------------------- Oh God, so much wrong... I just re-watched it the day before yesterday to remind myself how much it sucked. I have an incomplete list thus far, and I tried to avoid comparing it to the previous films and just viewing it as its own entity: Page Fletcher: terrible look, terrible delivery, terrible movement. Maurice Dean Wint(sp?): Bad delivery and expression inside the suit, not one of the other actors (aside from flashback Murphy) had a clue how to interact with him, making him look like an overacting jackass compared to their underacting lameness. Ann R. Key: WTF? Not only is having another character named Ann (albeit spelled differently) fucking lazy and awkward to hear Robo say when not referring to Lewis, but everything about her from concept to actress to execution is eye-rolling. Lightsabers and '90s Flash TV series quality "super speed" effects? Shameful. Pretty much every actor. They should have cut down on the speaking roles, gotten a stronger core cast and went for aspiring actors with something to prove instead of Canadian television standbys. Visual effects: Holy hell, these were bad. Badly roto-scoped stock explosions and sparks terribly blurred from resizing, giving Robo bullet selection options, adding muzzle flashes to the fronts of bikes that have no guns on them, Predator cloaking BS... Pacing: Interrupting action scenes for intense OCP boardroom action??? Count me in, who doesn't want to see scenes chopped to bits so they can insert some pointless chatter about banal OCP BS? Editing: Yes, separate from pacing because... wow. The constant Awesome Slow-Motion (tm) stretching out action to three times their optimal running time is just too much. Having characters repeat the same line four times because they need to fill their 90 minute running time with only 35 pages of actual script... blech. If this thing falls apart during casual viewing, watching it under a microscope is an excercise in pure frustration because it fails on so many levels. SFX: Robo sounds like he's got crumpled garbage cans on his feet, dragging and clanking without any change throughout the film, regardless of how damaged he is. Annoying audio whenever computer's being used, which is standard, but not when these damned things are so prevalent in the program. Direction: Julian Grant has no clue how to do his job beyond the technicalities. He got hired because he had a history of delivering on time and without budget overruns. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought people got hired to do jobs because they were good, not because they were "good enough". CompUSA just went out of business because they went for the "good enough" strategy. You have one chance to make a film good or bad. You don't hire people who are "good enough" because in doing so you have squandered your chance, and ruined all the other possibly creative efforts focused at the project. You are only as strong as your weakest link. Plot: Big one here. "Bio-tech virus" that infects both electronics and organics? Okay, throw me some techno babble to explain it away and you've got yourself a deal. Oh, couldn't bother to try and give an explanation because even you guys thought it was the stupidest fucking idea in the world? Kaydick? Random bleached blond mad scientist dude. Alrighty, what's his motivation, why does he want to destroy the world? "It's sick". Wow, that was a cop out. Why were you hired again? Oh, it was thrown into the submission pile as a joke? That makes sense. It reads like slash fiction without the sex. Moving on, this doesn't deserve serious critical thought. Writing: Some people liked the writing. I thought it was plotting and banal. There was two film's worth material in the script, possibly three depending on the director. Not that it mattered, the entire thing came off like it was written by the resident high-schooler/aspiring writer the day before shooting onto cue cards held off screen, which might explain why the entire damned thing is disjointed. And why "What are you prepared to do?" pops up a half dozen times in each film. RoboCop's signature line, "Dead or alive, you're coming with me", shows up twice in RC1. Twice. How many times down Arnold say "I'll be back" in Term1? Once. When you shove catchphrases down our throats we will choke and despise you for it. I would have mentioned budget, but I don't think that was as big an issue as most make it. They had $12 mil (the original had $13 mil, which was a low-budget film itself, I don't know why it's referenced as a high-budget film in press-related shit) and didn't have the costs of designing and creating the suits, merely pulling some new casts from the old molds, which Hansing could do for less than 2k a set back in the day. They didn't have to spend cash on ED-209 or his effects, nor waste money on a RoboCar that never even made it on screen. Digital effects all but eliminated the overhead for RoboVision shots, they didn't blow up any buildings (aside from stock from The Series) though they did have explosions, I'll give them that. But I'll also give them a bitch slap for thinking that anything they did was even remotely close to cool/thought provoking/critically sound/endearing/enjoyable. When the only decent things in six hours of "entertainment" can be summed up in individual shots amidst entire other scenes you've got a pile of shit on your hands. Their hands were stained with it by the time this thing hti the airwaves. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:27 am ----------------------------------- That's quite a big post...with lots of good points. ----------------------------------- RoboHell Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:51 am ----------------------------------- Um....... i was going to give my thought's on how bad P.D. sucked but RoboTrap got it all and then some. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:03 am ----------------------------------- Thanks, guys. Actually, I totally forgot to even mention the music. A few bits, like the music used when Cable was chasing down Robo in the car (before Robo went into the water) were cool, but the western thing they used most of the time was horribly misplaced. I don't even know what they were thinking with that one. It wasn't dramatic or cool or memorable, but it should have at least fit. And I didn't think I really needed to expound upon Bone Machine. I don't think I'm the only one who found it awkward for an old bald man to be some supposed nemesis seemingly named after a porn star. ----------------------------------- Mephisto Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:35 pm ----------------------------------- Thanks, guys. Actually, I totally forgot to even mention the music. A few bits, like the music used when Cable was chasing down Robo in the car (before Robo went into the water) were cool, but the western thing they used most of the time was horribly misplaced. I don't even know what they were thinking with that one. It wasn't dramatic or cool or memorable, but it should have at least fit. And I didn't think I really needed to expound upon Bone Machine. I don't think I'm the only one who found it awkward for an old bald man to be some supposed nemesis seemingly named after a porn star. Ha....I like your style RT. You remind me of the way I post at times. Intelligent, yet slightly harsh...but to the point. Good points at that. :) ----------------------------------- Josh Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:02 am ----------------------------------- Trap. A brilliant post... ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:47 am ----------------------------------- Actually, I totally forgot to even mention the music. A few bits, like the music used when Cable was chasing down Robo in the car (before Robo went into the water) were cool, but the western thing they used most of the time was horribly misplaced. I don't even know what they were thinking with that one. It wasn't dramatic or cool or memorable, but it should have at least fit. yeah I have wrote about it .. finally someone has the same opinion .. another think what I really hate in the PD is the idea with the same two Robocops there !( oh maybe the Cable has two guns and a little darker armour .. but it is the same design as the true Robocop ) Well maybe if the Cable looked otherwise .. maybe something as Cain or the prototypes in R2 .. :roll: result .. ah the PD did not show us the legendary Robocop with a chazisma what we saw in first two films , but PD showed us just poor rest of legend what looks as a grenpa and who does not is able to kill the "bad guy "RoboCable .. :x btw the Murphys son James ( I dont know name of the actor ) damn he could be nicer and better Robocop instead the Fletch.. ----------------------------------- paul Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:52 am ----------------------------------- the only good thing about robocop pd was that they came out with toys(which still sorta sucked because they were based on the characters from the show , but still gives me more crap to buy to put on my shelf.! ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:55 am ----------------------------------- the only good thing about robocop pd was that they came out with toys(which still sorta sucked because they were based on the characters from the show , but still gives me more crap to buy to put on my shelf.! Wait...which toys were those? ----------------------------------- Archive Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:20 am ----------------------------------- the only good thing about robocop pd was that they came out with toys Incorrect. There were no toys released alongside Robo:PD. (which was aired around 2001) ----------------------------------- Philip17 Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:18 pm ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Actually, I totally forgot to even mention the music. A few bits, like the music used when Cable was chasing down Robo in the car (before Robo went into the water) were cool, but the western thing they used most of the time was horribly misplaced. I don't even know what they were thinking with that one. It wasn't dramatic or cool or memorable, but it should have at least fit. yeah I have wrote about it .. finally someone has the same opinion .. another think what I really hate in the PD is the idea with the same two Robocops there !( oh maybe the Cable has two guns and a little darker armour .. but it is the same design as the true Robocop ) Well maybe if the Cable looked otherwise .. maybe something as Cain or the prototypes in R2 .. result .. ah the PD did not show us the legendary Robocop with a chazisma what we saw in first two films , but PD showed us just poor rest of legend what looks as a grenpa and who does not is able to kill the "bad guy "RoboCable .. btw the Murphys son James ( I dont know name of the actor ) damn he could be nicer and better Robocop instead the Fletch.. hummm... I totaly agree with that last part!!! James could be a better robocop, but thats my opinion, and I think they created Cable similar to the original robocop because the other crime prevention unit projects were a total failure :roll: So they think, they sould do another cyborg looking like the original :? so that the "robot" could work properly, but of course there is the other problem.... If they could make a Cable cyborg, that means that any other dead cop could be a robocop too.... :? ----------------------------------- paul Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:13 am ----------------------------------- funny , i could have sworn there was a bone-(crusher?) what ever it's name was toy! (sorry, it';s been a wierd night, I'm tired and I've had a little to drink!!) i saw some toys, and i thought it was at walmart , but you guys are the experts, should i stand corrected, than so be it. but i could have sworn i saw these toys, i thought that was where the robo , with the removable helmet , and chest plate came from , because they didn't come from the movies..like i said, If i am wrong , so be it, let me know. i just could have SWORN i saw these toys!!! there was a robo cable and every thing !!!!! maybe it was regional? i don't know , maybe someone with access to more knowledge could look into it. Paul ----------------------------------- Archive Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:01 pm ----------------------------------- but i could have sworn i saw these toys, i thought that was where the robo , with the removable helmet , and chest plate came from , because they didn't come from the movies..like i said, If i am wrong , so be it, let me know. i just could have SWORN i saw these toys!!! there was a robo cable and every thing !!!!! maybe it was regional? i don't know , maybe someone with access to more knowledge could look into it. Could be some old Robocop:The Series toy you found. There hasn't been any full Robo toyline since that old tv-series back in 1993-1994. Making Robo:PD toys would have been a economical suicide. The show had very little viewers when it aired back in 2001. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:44 pm ----------------------------------- There hasn't been any full Robo toyline since that old tv-series back in 1993-1994. Incorrect. Toy Island produced an Alpha Commando toyline in 1998, featuring multiple RoboCop figures with various accessories, an Agent Miner figure in RoboCop-inspired gear, a REXOR figure, a CryoSafe set, his RoboJet, RoboCycle and car, a rerelease of the JC Pennys '93 Christmas Catalog exclusive Weapon Arm (Toy Island also handled the RC3 toys as well as The Series' toys) in blue instead of black, and a 12" figure line. ----------------------------------- Archive Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:13 pm ----------------------------------- Incorrect. Toy Island produced an Alpha Commando toyline in 1998, That is right of course. I must have blocked it out mentally. :) ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:29 pm ----------------------------------- Yeah, I always think 'WTF?' whenever I uncover some AC merchandise in my RoboCop stuff. ----------------------------------- paul Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:47 pm ----------------------------------- ahah, that could very well be what i saw!! thanks for the clarification! ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:56 am ----------------------------------- I've brought this topic back up for only one real reason. I've read a fair portion of all the posts here, and I agree with many of them, but I think I know what one of the real problems with PD was. And I wasn't even around for it. Jose (Mindchamber) made one kickass animated clip to promote PD, kind of a teaser trailer, if you will. And what did the sorry fucks on Prime Directives do? Well, they didn't include it with the show. And, if I'm not mistaken, I believe they were supposed to. Trust me, anyone who's seen that clip can't deny that if they actually aired it with PD that it would have at least somewhat upgraded it's level of sucktitude. Ah, well, bah. :roll: That's all. ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:03 pm ----------------------------------- Trust me, anyone who's seen that clip can't deny that if they actually aired it with PD that it would have at least somewhat upgraded it's level of sucktitude. damn I saw it and I bet half of this club have seen the MC clip as well .. better and more interesting work as whole PD ! :mrgreen: again what was wrong .. they could save up the money and maybe to start the filming around this time ! maybe they would find better actor .:mrgreen:.or connect the money with an studio and finally to create a decent film ..you know the phrase " more money more music "! ----------------------------------- Archive Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:09 pm ----------------------------------- Fireworks Entertainment wanted to make use of the TV rights to RoboCop before they expired and thus ordered that Prime Directive be made, selecting Julian Grant to direct. Grant had a reputation for finishing projects ahead of schedule and under budget. Notice that there is no mention of actual quality being needed. Just that he keeps the schedule and stays under budget. :| ----------------------------------- Law Giver Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:28 pm ----------------------------------- What went wrong, was that the original people just let the property be taken out've their hands and handled by total idiots so to make easy money off the name brand and take advantage of the fan base. It really began after Robocop's release, they saw Robocop as a commercial prospective. Even after the original movie was released, they had a toyline for the kids and childish cartoon TV series. Even Robocop 2 was severly watered down and it was followed by Robo 3 and TV(and new toyline) which was straight up for children. Same problem with T2, that movie really should've been PG-13, CONAN THE DESTROYER and RETURN OF THE JEDI9damn Lucas and his Ewoks), same things again..toys and kids. I even remember parents complaining about the movies being too violent. CONAN II became PG and catered to the Dungeon and Dragons crowd, Ninja Turtles II going into total silliness territory ect ect. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:37 pm ----------------------------------- First of all, Nuemeier and Miner had the rights to pen the second film but their script was rejected. They also had the rights of first refusal to writing the pilot for a live-action television series, which they did, although it had to be watered down to cater to the extreme anti-violence crusade going on in the early/mid-'90s. Anything else was the result of Orion owning the character. RoboCop 2 was not watered down, it was far more violent than the original film, which was a common complaint amongst reviewers because it wasn't over-the-top like the original, it was just cold and exploitative. Secondly, I can't believe you just bashed Terminator 2, one of the finest science fiction films ever created. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:22 am ----------------------------------- Fireworks Entertainment wanted to make use of the TV rights to RoboCop before they expired and thus ordered that Prime Directive be made, selecting Julian Grant to direct. Grant had a reputation for finishing projects ahead of schedule and under budget. Notice that there is no mention of actual quality being needed. Just that he keeps the schedule and stays under budget. :| Hmm, I think I kind of remember that from before, Archive. Who actually wrote/posted that, Brandon? ----------------------------------- Law Giver Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:33 am ----------------------------------- First of all, Nuemeier and Miner had the rights to pen the second film but their script was rejected. They also had the rights of first refusal to writing the pilot for a live-action television series, which they did, although it had to be watered down to cater to the extreme anti-violence crusade going on in the early/mid-'90s. Anything else was the result of Orion owning the character. RoboCop 2 was not watered down, it was far more violent than the original film, which was a common complaint amongst reviewers because it wasn't over-the-top like the original, it was just cold and exploitative. Secondly, I can't believe you just bashed Terminator 2, one of the finest science fiction films ever created. The violence in Robocop 2 was senseless, over the top and comical just as the villains themselves. In Robocop 2, the character itself was watered down and the storyline was disjointed. He spent most of the time around kids in the movie. You had the arcade room, baseball kids, spray paint kids, and then the OCP reprogramming stuff where he was a family friendly Robot with lame dialog...then he was normal, he was still wooden. As for T2, I never cared for it. The movie wasnt that bloody, the T-800 didnt even kill anybody and was far too light hearted complete with the annoying kid. I preferred T1 and 1990's TOTAL RECALL. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:05 am ----------------------------------- RC2 was an "adult" film written by someone who hasn't grown up. That's not watering down, that undermining. I'm convinced Frank Miller has some issues from his childhood because he just loves to throw kids into his comics/movies. And as far as Robo's character is concerned, it's a matter of supreme misunderstanding and bad writing on Miller's part, not intentional "kiddifying" to appeal to the masses. Miller couldn't even bother to get Sgt. Reed's first name right, I doubt the man had enough understanding of the source material to even realize Robo was supposed to have found himself again at the end of RC1, and thus wrote him as a robot instead of Murphy. With T2, the film had more gore than the first so I don't know what you're talking about there, the T-800 was ordered to not kill anybody as an extension of the idea that technology is only good or evil when it is made/programmed in such a way and not inherent to it, and what you saw as light-hearted I saw as an expansion upon the ideas and themes of T1, with the only additions being those that applied to John's plight. And I know this is personal preference, but I thought Furlong was the least annoying kid in a movie I have ever seen and did a fine job. T1 was a horror film, T2 was an action film, same thing with Alien/Aliens... I think James Cameron has a great understanding of what elements to alter in the presentation of a sequel while retaining the themes and spirit of the original. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:11 am ----------------------------------- Great points their Trap. I'd also like that in all of those series I like the first film the best, though it isn't always the general opinion. ----------------------------------- Mephisto Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:06 pm ----------------------------------- Hey guys, I gotta step in here. this thread is about RoboCop PD. Not RoboCop 2. Not Teminator 1 or 2. Please stay on topic. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:04 pm ----------------------------------- Sorry, I have some strongly held feelings about both franchises and tend to get carried away. *ahem* ----------------------------------- zach11 Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:45 pm ----------------------------------- It appears that Robocop PD suffered from a number of ills and if it had just gotten the basics correct, it would have been more enjoyable. It appeasrs as if the 2 Robocop actors did not even watch the movements of Peter Weller. It looked like they wanted to "put their own take" on the character - big mistake. The sound guys did not use all of the original sound effects for robocop (walking) and why did they use an "old west" sound track for the showdosns?! It sounds like a Clint Eastwood movie soundtrack! Did they even think about what they were producing? I mean how many times can we watch 2 Robocops shooting at each other from point blank range eventhough they can't be hurt by the bullets! Other details that were unecessarily overlooked are the fact that bullets do not hurt Robocop and in firefights Robo raises his hand to protect his mouth/chin skin. Had they just gotten these aspects right, this forum topic may well have been moot! ----------------------------------- Fiwhiz Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:00 am ----------------------------------- Myself I Liked Robocop PD alot .. Though i am a fan of the original movie this was a lower budget series only 20 Million to work with total. I remember back in early 2000 talking to Julian Grant about this feature and how hard they worked on the Budget they had for this series. In All Fairness this is not even close to the original but its still a good piece of work. Of course there are some crappy aspects of the film but that goes for about anything. For Being a TV Series Robocop Prime Directives was good.They didn't shove 500 Million into it if they did it would be a whole diffrent thing to bitch about if it was crappy.20 Mill for 4 parts compared to 500 Million for 2 hours of shit i would take the 4 hour series. ----------------------------------- murphy38 Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:00 pm ----------------------------------- I agree with you my friend Fiwhiz about the PD. Julian Grant has done a good job with a small budjet very limited. Murphy38. ----------------------------------- murphy38 Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:05 pm ----------------------------------- I have a chance to talk often with Julian Grant and explain it all Prime Directives and I can tell you he has made very good job. I know what I'm talking about at the moment we do we as a movie, so I can tell you that Julian Grant took a lot of courage to do that with just a budjet of the Canadian television. ----------------------------------- Archive Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:41 pm ----------------------------------- Of course there are some crappy aspects of the film but that goes for about anything. For Being a TV Series Robocop Prime Directives was good.They didn't shove 500 Million into it if they did it would be a whole diffrent thing to bitch about if it was crappy.20 Mill for 4 parts compared to 500 Million for 2 hours of shit i would take the 4 hour series. The problems with PD isn't just because of the budget. It had a lot to do with bad acting, a bad RoboCop and a bad script. While it is convenient for Julian Grant to blame the budget, in this case it doesn't hold up. ----------------------------------- TwilightPro101 Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:36 pm ----------------------------------- I didn't so much mind the first two acts, but the script itself and the acting progressed to such a weak state near the last two chapters. I really wanted to enjoy these movies, but it fails so miserably in the end to live up to the legacy of the first film. ----------------------------------- Edd 209 Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:46 am ----------------------------------- Of course there are some crappy aspects of the film but that goes for about anything. For Being a TV Series Robocop Prime Directives was good.They didn't shove 500 Million into it if they did it would be a whole diffrent thing to bitch about if it was crappy.20 Mill for 4 parts compared to 500 Million for 2 hours of shit i would take the 4 hour series. The problems with PD isn't just because of the budget. It had a lot to do with bad acting, a bad RoboCop and a bad script. While it is convenient for Julian Grant to blame the budget, in this case it doesn't hold up. I'll second that! And bad camera angles! ----------------------------------- Ziggy716 Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:46 pm ----------------------------------- PD was an attempt at being modern, edgy, and still maintaining Robocop's satire and darkness. The director was trying too hard to bring him so far into the future it ended up exploding in his face. The story began to focus less and less on Robocop and more on that Robocable reject. Not to mention, the movie followed nothing that previous ones did. At all. The guy they got to play Robocop screwed everything up too. You can't create a movie where the title character absolutely sucks and then wonder why your movie failed. ----------------------------------- Philip17 Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:58 am ----------------------------------- The makor problem was the "FletcherCop"!! I found this in wikipedia: Page Fletcher hasn't seen the RoboCop movies and no effort was made to mimic Peter Weller's RoboCop movements. Page Fletcher instead worked out a RoboCop movement system for himself that he felt was appropriate for where the character was, physically and emotionally. I wonder how stupid they can get :ohdear: If he never saw the movies, why the hell did they pic fletcher in the first place??? :huhwhat: ----------------------------------- AlexMurphy Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:45 am ----------------------------------- The makor problem was the "FletcherCop"!! I found this in wikipedia: Page Fletcher hasn't seen the RoboCop movies and no effort was made to mimic Peter Weller's RoboCop movements. Page Fletcher instead worked out a RoboCop movement system for himself that he felt was appropriate for where the character was, physically and emotionally. I wonder how stupid they can get :ohdear: If he never saw the movies, why the hell did they pic fletcher in the first place??? :huhwhat: Although Wikipedia is not always accurate (as anyone can change it, and make up things as facts), that part is probably true, and God dam it shows in PD. They probably would of been better off getting Richard Eden back to play RoboCop cause at least he can do the movements and has played the character before. On top of that, he isn't so dam short. RoboCop was shorter than practically everyone in PD, and looked horrible. His Robo voice was also very strange, and sounded like he was trying to muffle his dialog out. I didn't mind the first one, Dark Justice, THAT much. The emotional aspects of the character were pretty good, but it went down hill after that. And they did all four "films" for a budget less than the original RoboCop. The director they hired didn't help any. ----------------------------------- bucka607 Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:22 pm ----------------------------------- to be honest fletcher was kinda ok but the basic storyline for this mini series was rubbish!!!! oh nd fletcher was way to small aswell!!!! ----------------------------------- Archive Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:31 pm ----------------------------------- Although Wikipedia is not always accurate (as anyone can change it, and make up things as facts), that part is probably true, and God dam it shows in PD. Sadly It is true. The writers said this during the PD days. The info is taken from the archive PD trivia section. ----------------------------------- AlexMurphy Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:16 pm ----------------------------------- to be honest fletcher was kinda ok but the basic storyline for this mini series was rubbish!!!! oh nd fletcher was way to small aswell!!!! He wasn't bad playing Murphy, but when it came to RoboCop you just couldn't take it seriously anymore. His Robo movements looked like something me and my friend would try to do lol. ----------------------------------- bucka607 Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:17 pm ----------------------------------- yes dat is true he could play murphy but not robo.... also wen da helmet was off he look stupid!!! ----------------------------------- Psyburn Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:41 pm ----------------------------------- About the movements. I could take it a different way. The series usually deals with Alex's battle for his humanity. Maybe over the years....idk...he became more and more human...and...started moving like one showing his development? He had ten years :P Thats just me. I tend to analyze everything about the series and see why some changes were made. If the changes are stupid (X-men 3) thenI can be upset. with PD there's a ten year gap nd Murphy had spoken his own name without monotone at the end of the first movie which showed his development. And PD takes ten years afterwards, who knows? ----------------------------------- AlexMurphy Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:45 pm ----------------------------------- Um...no offense but I have no idea what you just said. I don't really know what you mean you could take it a different way, because the movements were horrible. Plan and simple. The director and actor made no effort what so ever to make the Robo movement authentic as it was in the movies. This wasn't really a change, as much as it was a mistake on the directors part to not take the time to direct the actor on the movement. At least in the TV series, you could tell some effort was made, and it didn't look like RoboCop was trying not to fall in all the scenes. Yes, I could understand why a lot of changes were made in the TV series, it was aimed at kids and at that time not a lot of violence was allowed on TV. Today though, they could probably do a good RoboCop series that's PG13 at least (PG13 today is not as light as it was back then). ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:34 am ----------------------------------- About the movements. I could take it a different way. The series usually deals with Alex's battle for his humanity. Maybe over the years....idk...he became more and more human...and...started moving like one showing his development? He had ten years :P Well that is true, but I don't think that would really change the way he moves. I mean, he's built to move in a certain way, and there's not much getting around that. ----------------------------------- Stormwind Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:26 am ----------------------------------- I think people are a little hard on Robocop: PD. It's far from perfect, but it's also not crap. The main problems with it really are the budget and the overly ambitious script. It has MANY faults with it, But I still think people are hard on it. Robocop by it's very nature needs some suspension of reality. Though I'm going to tackle the most common issues with it one at a time. First is the subpar special effects. The thing is, The project had 8 million dollars to do ALL 4 episodes. And each one has the running time of a full length film. 8 million dollars for 8 hours of footage. That's basically the catering budget for a modern day movie. They could have been done better, But considering what they had to work with. It's not bad either. Robocop by it's nature requires of measure of belief suspension and imagination. Second, the complaint about Page Fletcher. Physically he doesn't measure up, literally. He's rather short for the role, I'd love to play Robocop in a film, but I also lack the height. But his acting as a 10 year old obsolete and quasi suicidal Robocop was quite good. He even affected me emotionally, I could feel his plight and the pain he suffers in his life. That performance for me made up for the lack of physical qualities. I think in the minds of people, Page Fletcher's biggest crime is that he's not Peter Weller. It's like having someone else other then William Shatner playing James T. Kirk. However I can accept that an older, run down, badly neglected Robocop wouldn't be the same as the one who was fresh off the shop. People change alot in 10 years. Alex Murphy wouldn't be an exception. Third the long dragging scenes. Argueably Robocop is supposed to be an action movie/series. And the majority of the scenes focus on character development. So naturally when it doesn't go 'Bang Bang' it gets dialogue heavy. But that's a major way we learn about these characters. By what they say, the stories they tell. And there's 8 hours of running time, Not all 8 hours will be guns and blood. It's what made the original so successful, not only was the primal bloodlust we innately have, But also we began to feel for Alex Murphy. A man having everything taken away from him, even peace of death. And now forced to live as this 'thing' Neither human nor machine. The forced solitude Murphy has to endure. But as stated, alot of flaws as well. Many I agree with. My biggest gripe with Prime Directives is really the story tries to do too much at once. There are so many plots and subplots that even with the 8 hour running time. They are only superficially tackled. The complexities between the relationship of Murphy and Cable. OCP's plight and Murphy's son. Those 3 subjects alone would have been enough to fill 8 hours running time and would have added alot more depth and story then having 12 subplots, all done half assed. One more chance at the story that was totally neglected but would have made the story all the better would have been the irony of Robocop now being very backward 10 years in the future. When he was just made, he was state of the art, top of the line. Criminals were deathly afraid of Robocop because he was the unstoppable monster. 10 years on, Technology advanced but he's the same old Robo. People are used to seeing high tech and now Robo who was once dependant on the fear he struck into people. Now they're not afraid of him anymore, it makes his existence all the more difficult for him. Even his job of law enforcement becomming much more of a task then it used to be. Seeing a Messerschmitt BF-109 fighter during the 2nd world war, it looked like a menacing beast back then. But by today's standards it looks almost like a toy. This would have worked well in PD. But for all it's faults, at least atmosphere wise. It's the Robocop we remember. Dirty Detroit (now Delta City, but it looks just like Detroit), Crime Rampant. Capitalistic and Corrupted OCP and Robocop not afraid to kill. It could have been done alot better, but it could also have been worse. Abit of imagination goes a long way with PD. ----------------------------------- Archive Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:51 am ----------------------------------- Interesting post, with a lot of good points, but ultimately we judge what we see on the screen. Whatever happened behind the scenes and what the budget was is not relevant. If we start making up excuses just to hide the flaws, what's next? "Page Fletcher walked badly in the suit because he had a cold, it's not his fault." The "A bit of imagination goes a long way" thing is strange. Are you saying we should pretend that robo is taller and that the robo movements are good? Isn't that too much to ask of the viewer, to pretend and make up things to make the films better? ----------------------------------- Stormwind Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:52 pm ----------------------------------- Interesting post, with a lot of good points, but ultimately we judge what we see on the screen. Whatever happened behind the scenes and what the budget was is not relevant. If we start making up excuses just to hide the flaws, what's next? "Page Fletcher walked badly in the suit because he had a cold, it's not his fault." The "A bit of imagination goes a long way" thing is strange. Are you saying we should pretend that robo is taller and that the robo movements are good? Isn't that too much to ask of the viewer, to pretend and make up things to make the films better? Unfortunately it is revelevant. Obviously, if they had a larger budget. The production values for PD would have been alot better. There's only so much you can do with a tiny budget unfortunately in terms of effects and props and even actors available. Film projects don't have open season with casting, especially on a tiny budget alot of actors will turn down the role unfortunately. Only a few will do it for the sake of art. And with what I said about 'A little imagination goes a long way' I'm not saying to pretend that Fletcher's faults as Robo should be excused. But, to not be so visually detrimental that it sours the entire experience. I wish Page would have paid attention to Weller's performance, his emotions and general acting were good with what he has carte blanc to do, But the neglect of seeing how an already established character is and pay a little respect for it does deserve jeerz at. However, that being said, it wasn't enough to numb me when seeing Robo sink to his knees in grief. ----------------------------------- Archive Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:15 pm ----------------------------------- Unfortunately it is revelevant. Obviously, if they had a larger budget. The production values for PD would have been alot better. I see what your getting at but if the director only had a bucket of sand and a shovel for a budget should we just say it was great because they only had a small budget? The budget isn't the biggest problem though. It boils down to a kinda crappy director. Just looking at the car chase in "meltdown" makes me fall asleep. Compare that to the van chase in robo1 and notice how a great director does it. Granted, Page Fletcher does shine as Murphy. He's just not a very good robo. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:42 pm ----------------------------------- Even if they had a small budget couldn't they have afforded a few bucks to rent a copy of Robocop for Fletcher to watch? ----------------------------------- DoktorNo Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:03 am ----------------------------------- Even if they had a small budget couldn't they have afforded a few bucks to rent a copy of Robocop for Fletcher to watch? If a lead actor don't know anything about the hero, that heor she would be playing, this is a unavoidable disaster. Imagine, if the cast of LOTR would not know antything about the Tolikiens' book... ----------------------------------- AlexMurphy Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:16 pm ----------------------------------- There are a lot of old movies with a low budget that comes out good in the end. Rocky only had a budget of one million, and look how that turned out. The budget isn't the whole reason with this, becasue time has told that even low budget films can be good. This wasn't the case. It all came down to the director and cast. And when your lead actor doesn't even know the character, why the hell would you cast him? The whole "developed his own RoboCop movements to suit the character during his time" is a rather lame excuss. He doesn't even know the character. Was it really that hard to watch the film to get an idea? I don't really know about the effects, becasue they weren't that great, even for that time. Alot of the scenes dragged, and the dialog was slowlly preformed. It tends to lose intrest fast. I think the story did have SOME polential though, but overall it failed. I just wasn't feeling RoboCop in it. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:32 pm ----------------------------------- There are a lot of old movies with a low budget that comes out good in the end. ADRIAN!!! ADRIAN!!! ----------------------------------- Psyburn Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:22 am ----------------------------------- If we start making up excuses just to hide the flaws, what's next? The "A bit of imagination goes a long way" thing is strange. Are you saying we should pretend that robo is taller and that the robo movements are good? Isn't that too much to ask of the viewer, to pretend and make up things to make the films better? Well it's better to try and find the good things about the series instead of weighing in and accentuating the negatives. Focusing too much on the movements of the actor as one of the major fallacies of the series is by all means ridiculous. A lot of people complained about the lack of character development in the last two sequels of the films. This series adds in more background and even reintroduces James Murphy for this effect. But now are we supposed to ignore that because of the movements? Special effects suck. There's practically no excuse for bright orange "flare" sparks to come off a normal bullet. Bone Machine makes a bad villain, but he isn't seen much. i don't recall him in the 2-3 episodes. Thats how forgettable he should be. Sides, there's "Da bomz" who are much worse. Then again "We do not negotiate, we DETONATE!" Sounded pretty awesome....for some reason.... ----------------------------------- AlexMurphy Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:51 am ----------------------------------- The negative aspects of PD over weigh the good aspects. Yes, there are SOME good parts in it, but there weren't enough to save this series. Whenever you watch something, you look for the good and bad points. Well for most of us, clearly there weren't enough good points in it to say it was a good try. The Robo movements is only one of the bad points, and having the director and actor not even knowing anything about the character just adds to how badly this was executed. And of course the movements matter, because that is WHAT defines RoboCop. -Fletcher could not play RoboCop. He was also too short for the role, granted he did a good job playing Murphy, but your actor needs to be able to play BOTH parts. -The budget. While it's usually not an issue as I have pointed out for some, all four of the "films" had a budget even LESS than the original RoboCop film. Unfortunately, it shows. -The director was hired because he was known for efficiency and not quality. Meaning they hired him because they knew he could do it fast and on a budget. Apparently, doing it right doesn't count here... -The script had a lot of problems. The writers said they were RoboCop fans, but the films did not make me feel RoboCop. The story did have potential to be good, but it wasn't executed right. -The acting was pretty horrible at times too. It's hard to concentrate on story when the acting is bad. The films also tend to pace itself VERY slowly. To the point where you can't help but yawn. Suspense is good, too much suspense is boring. Even with good story, EVERYTHING will come down to how it's all shown, and it wasn't shown well in this case. ----------------------------------- Archive Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:34 am ----------------------------------- Focusing too much on the movements of the actor as one of the major fallacies of the series is by all means ridiculous. Are you saying the robo movements aren't important? Interesting statement by a robocop fan. And well, since RoboCop is the main character and all it IS the thing we see the most of. And as such this big flaw is the most frequent and most annoying. Although it is of course only one of many flaws, as the post by "AlexMurphy" lists quite nicely. ----------------------------------- Skeith Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:55 pm ----------------------------------- One f the main things are Robo movements. I don't see why they should not focus on them more. ----------------------------------- AlexMurphy Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:12 am ----------------------------------- Blame the director. I mean, they haven't even seen the film for fuck sakes! And the director was known for not doing good work, so why they hired him is beyond us. ----------------------------------- murphy38 Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:09 am ----------------------------------- I think people are a little hard on Robocop: PD. It's far from perfect, but it's also not crap. The main problems with it really are the budget and the overly ambitious script. It has MANY faults with it, But I still think people are hard on it. Robocop by it's very nature needs some suspension of reality. Though I'm going to tackle the most common issues with it one at a time. First is the subpar special effects. The thing is, The project had 8 million dollars to do ALL 4 episodes. And each one has the running time of a full length film. 8 million dollars for 8 hours of footage. That's basically the catering budget for a modern day movie. They could have been done better, But considering what they had to work with. It's not bad either. Robocop by it's nature requires of measure of belief suspension and imagination. Second, the complaint about Page Fletcher. Physically he doesn't measure up, literally. He's rather short for the role, I'd love to play Robocop in a film, but I also lack the height. But his acting as a 10 year old obsolete and quasi suicidal Robocop was quite good. He even affected me emotionally, I could feel his plight and the pain he suffers in his life. That performance for me made up for the lack of physical qualities. I think in the minds of people, Page Fletcher's biggest crime is that he's not Peter Weller. It's like having someone else other then William Shatner playing James T. Kirk. However I can accept that an older, run down, badly neglected Robocop wouldn't be the same as the one who was fresh off the shop. People change alot in 10 years. Alex Murphy wouldn't be an exception. Third the long dragging scenes. Argueably Robocop is supposed to be an action movie/series. And the majority of the scenes focus on character development. So naturally when it doesn't go 'Bang Bang' it gets dialogue heavy. But that's a major way we learn about these characters. By what they say, the stories they tell. And there's 8 hours of running time, Not all 8 hours will be guns and blood. It's what made the original so successful, not only was the primal bloodlust we innately have, But also we began to feel for Alex Murphy. A man having everything taken away from him, even peace of death. And now forced to live as this 'thing' Neither human nor machine. The forced solitude Murphy has to endure. But as stated, alot of flaws as well. Many I agree with. My biggest gripe with Prime Directives is really the story tries to do too much at once. There are so many plots and subplots that even with the 8 hour running time. They are only superficially tackled. The complexities between the relationship of Murphy and Cable. OCP's plight and Murphy's son. Those 3 subjects alone would have been enough to fill 8 hours running time and would have added alot more depth and story then having 12 subplots, all done half assed. One more chance at the story that was totally neglected but would have made the story all the better would have been the irony of Robocop now being very backward 10 years in the future. When he was just made, he was state of the art, top of the line. Criminals were deathly afraid of Robocop because he was the unstoppable monster. 10 years on, Technology advanced but he's the same old Robo. People are used to seeing high tech and now Robo who was once dependant on the fear he struck into people. Now they're not afraid of him anymore, it makes his existence all the more difficult for him. Even his job of law enforcement becomming much more of a task then it used to be. Seeing a Messerschmitt BF-109 fighter during the 2nd world war, it looked like a menacing beast back then. But by today's standards it looks almost like a toy. This would have worked well in PD. But for all it's faults, at least atmosphere wise. It's the Robocop we remember. Dirty Detroit (now Delta City, but it looks just like Detroit), Crime Rampant. Capitalistic and Corrupted OCP and Robocop not afraid to kill. It could have been done alot better, but it could also have been worse. Abit of imagination goes a long way with PD. I totally agree with doing what you said, The PD have been misinterpreted by many people helas because he did not see the side alone and tortured murphy abused by time and progress. Julian GRANT wanted to show that nobody is perfect and that he had also murphy weaknesses even as Robocop, alone in her memories each day and a struggle against the memory of a past rather relaxed. Page feltcher Robocop embodies an old, tired and suicidal, it is not Peter Weller and nobody can match the performences it. I simply think that what has failed a Page Fletcher is learning the movements of robo with a mime. I myself am not big in size and my film Robocop vs. Predator 2 hours I work each day to work my gesture. I can tell you that when you practice a lot and wear the costume, 8h per day, you sometimes have a tendency to forget the gestures, moments of innatention who sometimes movements are not correct a perfection and you escape. I like the work of Julian GRANT, he worked the light images to compensate for the lack of money, and if I had to make a comment on just this problem of study mime movements that can have would not be Page Fletcher & Dean Wint. Do not be so harsh with the work of PD my friends, we can be that our film Robocop vs. Predator will not be perfect, be indulgent, thank you for Julian Grant. Tinycop. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:14 pm ----------------------------------- Another old-ass, over-debated-to-death topic that's still somehow active. I don't have time to read all those points this minute, let alone constructively reply to them, but I will later. I will say this for now, one, saying PD failed just because of a low budget is nothing more than a crummy-ass excuse. And two, saying that just because a TV series is bad, people should re-imagine something that's already imagined to begin with is extra-stupid. Plain and simple. PD sucks monkey-balls. Saying anything else is only polluting our atmosphere with excessive carbon-dioxide. Bah. ----------------------------------- Philip17 Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:37 am ----------------------------------- Me I agree with Stormwind and with Murphy38!!! At the first time I saw it, I also thought it was not good, but when I saw it again, I understand the true feelings behind this project! Imagine your humanity taken away from you for 10 years!!! You never take a bath, never eat your favourite meal, never have sex, all of that for 10 years!!! That is why they make robocop acting as if Murphy is losing his will to live, and the tecnology is more advance, they even have optic camuflage! They can stay invisible!! Of course, seending an obsele "cyborg" is not a very good ideia, I would not fight an F-16 with a second world war plane!!! :? Ten years, you can´t even imagine, and not all that, they mess with his head, with those directives!!! They made him kill his old partner!!! Try imagine yourselfs kill your old firends!!! :opps: :roll: :ohdear: He had a very hard life!! Of course in these series there are things that fail! Some of the talking scene were to long, but the dialoge is interesting!! For exemple, Damian is somehow close to Dick Jones!! A corrupt "bastard", he kills everyone who stands in his way!! And he has no mercy!!! For exemplo, RoboCable was very interesting, and he moves more like the original Robocop, because he is brand new!!! The only made him look like the original, because it was the only project that worked correctly!!!! ED209, result was a failure!!! the 2 RoboCop2 were failures!!! RoboCain, HUGEEEE failure (bad brain)!!! The original robocop, the result was a HUGEEE success!!! So they must recreate the original in order to have again a successefull product!!! :D Also the problem is the actor was too small, but try to understand.... Murphy38 understand it is hard to play the role of robocop when your body is not the right size, BUT Murphy38 makes a great robocop!!! Because he practices many many times!!! Maybe Fletcher tried to recreate the movement of an obsele cyborg, but it was not correctly interpretated by the fans!!! It is time we see Robocop Prime Directives again, I am not saying it is a great job! But is still an interesting project that we shoud see again and study the thing behind it! :) ----------------------------------- Archive Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:26 pm ----------------------------------- but when I saw it again, I understand the true feelings behind this project! Imagine your humanity taken away from you for 10 years!!! Doesn't really matter that the IDEA behind PD is good when the end product ended up bad. Lots of movies had good original ideas but still ended up as crappy movies. PD would probably have been great in comic or book form, but as a live action piece it sucks. A bad filmmaker blames his equipment and budget, while a good filmmaker creates great stuff with what he's got. ----------------------------------- RegalSin Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:30 pm ----------------------------------- The only reason I have not yet deleted this piece of crap of my HD is for the OCP commercials and the one scene where Cables Wife gets strangled for using a hanger to kill of there unborn child. The movie was just another piece of televised garbage from Canada. They make Robocop look like a joke hiding himself from the public ( as if this was Conan. Somebody said something about Prozac Then to make things was the atmosphere. It was more like a drama ( which iis okay ) but less like what you wanted it to be a movie . I mean things like A. The Teddy bear making a angry face. B. The fact the OCP to executive who defended Robo-Cop never think to bring him into the office and to question him. C. The Baby face of the Virus that turns EVIL RED EYED. D. The presentation to the representatives. I mean nobody is that childish. E. Even the way the commercials and News was trying to cover an entire real newscast. That whole entire series is like one big OCP commercial. It is like FOX NEWS Times infinitive. F. The market. I mean WTF. The last I remember DC was a place where people had streets. This was obviously done in cheapdome. It was like the Troll market in Hellboy. G. Even the doctor who was called in to do a quicky Robocop revival. H. The black Jokes. I. The cheap E-mail joke. J. The super slow button pressing to only get shot by lasers. K. The fact the two Robo are fighting super slow. I mean Robo-Cop might walk funny but he is not slow. M. The lighting is too weird. It is terrible and in no way is match to the lighting from terminator of Blues Brothers. N. That guys haircut and attitude. P. Bone Machine AKA Hulk Kogan turned to the dark side and back on the dope. Q. Owweehhh my eyes they stained my eyes. My eyes oh gosh my eyes. ----------------------------------- Mindchamber Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:13 pm ----------------------------------- Seriously Budget is a NON issue, absolutely ridiculous anyone could use that as kind of excuse to a bad film, its simply ludicrous. Darren Aronofsky (robocops new director) Claim to fame is "Pi" a movie done on a 60k budget, When making a move you're story has to be powerful, directing percise and excution flawless, and you can direct that movie with a tyco tapedeck handycam. You can not work the other way around and expect a larger budget or more effects to band aid what was a shallow story and horrible acting. Case in point The new starWars Trilogy. Robocop PD was fail, plain and simple and neither the director nor its writers understood the complexity of the character, though I give them credit for trying. I repeat Budget is NON issue.. ----------------------------------- zach11 Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:03 pm ----------------------------------- To tell you the truth, i actually liked the PD series more than R3! What bothered me most about the series were the sound effects and music. I understand that they did not have access to the movie sound effects, but seriously, an electric drill makes better sounds than whatever they used. And what gives with the cheesy "spaghetti western" sound track? what is this the old west? Other than that, there were many things to pick on but i actually thought the story lines were interesting although obviously way stretched out to mee the 4 episode target. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:29 am ----------------------------------- Well made points MC, and this statement here... Robocop PD was fail, plain and simple and neither the director nor its writers understood the complexity of the character, though I give them credit for trying. ...sums PD up in a nutshell. Anything else, people? :b ----------------------------------- Edd 209 Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:07 pm ----------------------------------- A bad filmmaker blames his equipment and budget, while a good filmmaker creates great stuff with what he's got. That's a crackingly good quote, Archive! ----------------------------------- MetalPie408 Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:49 pm ----------------------------------- Question: Robocop PD, what went wrong? My Answer: Every F**kin' thing about it, it was bullsh**, nothing more. ----------------------------------- Rick Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:30 am ----------------------------------- ........ I give them credit for trying.You might, but myself and many others will never. I'd have preferred it they hadn't have tried at all than make the unholy piece of shit that is PD. It's just embarassing to watch and did more damage than you could have thought to a once great character, dragging the whole franchise down lower than it already was, instead of using it as a beacon of hope to show that it could be saved and be respected again. Did Julian Grant really have to make 4 movies out of this? Why not just one really good self contained 2 hour piece instead of a 4 parter with lots of rehashed and clichéd story arcs executed badly? There are so many things wrong about PD I don't even know where to begin, and I don't even want to start listing them right now because it actually makes me really angry that this dogshit ever was green-lighted and saw the light of day. I just sit and wait in hope that RoboCop in 2010 will be a wonderful cinematic experience for myself and others and will help drag this franchise back up on its feet and cast the shit stains it has off it's exterior so it can shine once more. If this movie fails in 2 years... RoboCop is dead. If PD was the shotgun blow to the head... the new movie could be the nails in the coffin, and for myself and every other RoboCop fan out there's sakes, I really hope it's not. Time will tell. Paddy :D ----------------------------------- protozoan Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:20 pm ----------------------------------- i definitely give them credit for trying. the show is watchable up until the finale of the last installment where it starts getting very corny and a bit like the matrix. my friend walked in when i was watching that part and he said exactly what was on my mind - 'i can't believe you actually bought this shit' ----------------------------------- PresidentJuggernaut Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:24 pm ----------------------------------- I really need to rewatch this. I have not seen it since the original airing. Plus, I thought I had watched the whole thing, but now I realize it was only about half. I thought it was okay at the time, but the few clips I've seen on the web make the production value and acting look terrible. ----------------------------------- Andrew Sawyers Fri May 15, 2009 7:23 pm ----------------------------------- ... Did anyone else find the Alex Murphy scenes as compelling as i did, a storyline that perhaps followed a little closer to Robcop on the beat 10 years after activation, with more flashbacks as he recovers more, or has recovered more of his personality would of been truly awesome, what'd you guys think? ----------------------------------- Archive Fri May 15, 2009 7:39 pm ----------------------------------- ... Did anyone else find the Alex Murphy scenes as compelling as i did, That was the best part of Robo:PD. They did the Alex Murphy scenes really well. ----------------------------------- Andrew Sawyers Fri May 15, 2009 7:50 pm ----------------------------------- ... Did anyone else find the Alex Murphy scenes as compelling as i did, That was the best part of Robo:PD. They did the Alex Murphy scenes really well.The first episode was very strong, and having trawled through the plethora of comments on here it would appear the general consensus, is that this series, was afflicted with what was flavour of the month, hence the sci-fi over tones... I like, and there's no getting away from it, Robocop is Half cop show, Half cyborg action... But, the strength of the first film, of which it had many was it led the viewer to believe in Murphy, that he existed and had a back story well before his transformation... and i was sad to see with PD, the Murphy that returned at the end of the first film has never been seen since... Kinda weird how none of the writers has developed what was set in place... ----------------------------------- Archive Fri May 15, 2009 8:13 pm ----------------------------------- I think the "highlander" approach they did with Robo:PD was nice in that it shows us flashbacks that are relevant to the story and in the same time flesh out the Alex Murphy character. They definitely could have done that more, but they dropped the ball after the first PD part. ----------------------------------- Philip17 Fri May 15, 2009 8:29 pm ----------------------------------- That was the best part of Robo:PD. They did the Alex Murphy scenes really well. Well, we can´t complain about that part, but yes they could made things better... The first episode (Dark Justice) is decent :) ----------------------------------- Diesel_85 Sun May 17, 2009 6:01 pm ----------------------------------- Ok... the PD series.... i own it... i liked it simply because its robocop.... basic story... i got it... i can dig it.. could have done with abit of tweaking but generally i could accept it as a robo story... to be honest i was just grateful to have one come up again at that point... my biggest problem as im sure everybody would agree.. iv'e seen afew posts saying this already, Page Fletcher!! I mean what in the hell?? this guy had no business wearing that robocop suit, the guy couldn't give us a walk, he just stumbled around like an old man, delivering lines was pitifull, i mean ok nobody did it quite like Peter Weller but that was rediculous, couldn't they get Richard Eden from the tv series to do it?? i mean he did a fairly good job with the movements & speech, Page Fletcher was a bad choice in my opinion and brought alot of damage to the mini series, if you can't really believe that this is the Robocop you love so much from the movies then your not gonna enjoy what your watching, had he of made a more solid performance then people probably would have enjoyed it alot more, maybe its just me but i feel the actor wearing the suit needs to be a strong one, they are the ones telling the story, they should be able to show us Robocop as we know him but instead Fletcher gave us this haggerd old man kinda feel everytie Robo moved anywhere, anybody else agree with me or am i on my own here? ----------------------------------- Philip17 Sun May 17, 2009 7:41 pm ----------------------------------- I believe he did those moves to give an "old product" look to robocop, PD is 10 years in the future of the original story line. Ok sure, robo could get a little rusty with the years, but not "clanck clanck" old kind.... I prefer Richard Eden :D ----------------------------------- Archive Sun May 17, 2009 7:57 pm ----------------------------------- anybody else agree with me or am i on my own here? I think most of us can agree that Page Fletcher was a REALLY crappy RoboCop but a good Alex Murphy. couldn't they get Richard Eden from the tv series to do it?? Richard Eden WAS approached to play the role again but demanded too much cash so he was replaced by Page Fletcher, who bumbled around in the suit like an idiot. Good choice Team PD. :) I believe he did those moves to give an "old product" look to robocop, oh please. :b ----------------------------------- Diesel_85 Sun May 17, 2009 8:13 pm ----------------------------------- Oh right, didn't realise Eden had been approached... shame he wanted a ton of cash, thanks for the info Archive ----------------------------------- MurphysGal Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:48 am ----------------------------------- I have got to say, i actually quite liked Prime Directives. Yeah it is nowhere near as amazing and awsome as the original movie, but when u think about it, for what it is, it is not that bad. It is a lot better then the third movie. It actually has quite a good storyline and i become so intrigued with the storyline that i don't really see the faults of the movies. i just enjoy it and i can watch it just as much as i do the first and second movies and not get sick of it. I do agree that Fletcher wasn't the best Robocop i have seen, it probally did have something to do with not watching the earlier films, but i understand why he might not have wanted to, he probally wanted to create something different, not just copy from what had been done earlier, he did do a wonderful job of the Murphy flashback scenes though. I think instead of whigning about how badly made u all think it was and the bad acting u think they did, i think we should all be happy that we have had the opportunity to see another Robocop type film. Most people never get to see their favourite movies being re-done in different ways and different storylines and even though a lot of you think it shouldn't have been made at all, we should all feel lucky it was and i am not ashamed to say i love this 4 part mini-series of my fav movie. ----------------------------------- Philip17 Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:29 pm ----------------------------------- i think we should all be happy that we have had the opportunity to see another Robocop type film. Well, I think most of the fans prefer NOT to see a bad job with robocop. Some would prefer to have just the first movie, and nothing else. There are fans that love all robocop related movies/series, others love the character so mutch that they made a sacrifice to accept a bad project, and other just see the first movie and the rest doesn´t exist! :roll: Don´t take me wrong, I respect your opinion, and we are glad you are honest about it :) ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:08 pm ----------------------------------- I think instead of whigning about how badly made u all think it was and the bad acting u think they did, i think we should all be happy that we have had the opportunity to see another Robocop type film. Just because it has robo in it doesn't mean we have to swallow it up and go for dessert. We CAN demand some kind of quality. I think i have done this analogy before but, if someone created a 2 hour robocop movie with nothing but rocks, sticks and dog turds would you still think it was great seeing another robo movie? ----------------------------------- HarryTasker88 Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:23 pm ----------------------------------- I think instead of whigning about how badly made u all think it was and the bad acting u think they did, i think we should all be happy that we have had the opportunity to see another Robocop type film. Just because it has robo in it doesn't mean we have to swallow it up and go for dessert. We CAN demand some kind of quality. I think i have done this analogy before but, if someone created a 2 hour robocop movie with nothing but rocks, sticks and dog turds would you still think it was great seeing another robo movie? Spot-on, Archive. Personally, I wouldn't. From the clips I've seen on youtube, PD just is plain awful. The worst thing about it is the actor playing RoboCop and the horrible moves he does. Painful to watch! Eden was sooooo much better than this retard, Fletcher. ----------------------------------- Zentron Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:02 pm ----------------------------------- Plus at times, he looks like a corpse inside that suit.... not good :( ----------------------------------- Officer Harvey Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:57 pm ----------------------------------- terrible choice of actors, namely Page Fletcher who was just garbage in every single meaning of the word. His walk, his talk, his height, BAD. I thought his Alex Murphy wasn't too bad but he was too old for the part and made him look like a punk although in that case, that was the script's (writer's) fault. Low-budget led to low quality special effects Massive story potential squashed in exchange for over-the-top sci-fi action not even relevant in Murphy's world. SAINT, Ann R. Key, K. Dick were a WASTE OF TIME. Bone Machine...he could've been pulled off if they made him an actual cyborg with a more intimidating less crazy look and demeanor and could've been passed off as a legit threat, not an annoyance. But that can go back to the budget and the writing. Lastly Personally I hated the way the Cable character was used. To me, I thought he was the best thing that stood out in PD and the ball on him dropped considerably. The biggest mistake I felt with the use of that character was that they made him a pawn AGAIN of someone else after Murphy had already successfully freed him from OCP control via memory transference. It would've been great to have him act more as a darker Robo after this and become a pissed-off vigilante cop, dispensing his own justice in DC in an attempt to live a portion of his old life leading to Murphy battling him again. That would've been way better than making him an annoying usable b*tch for the remainder of his time as RoboCable. ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:01 pm ----------------------------------- Also, however you look at it, both RoboCop3 and The series had so much better production value than PD. We can argue about the content, acting, script etc but ultimately PD was an extremely cheap product and it shows in all fields; but mostly in the visuals. I'm sure a better capable director could have made better use of the resourced at hand but the TV company hired on the grounds of someone who was cheap and could make a TV series quick and on time. With that in mind it is no wonder the quality suffered. ----------------------------------- Philip17 Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:32 pm ----------------------------------- We CAN demand some kind of quality. The same goes for the Titus game. Minimum quality is requested of course :| ----------------------------------- MurphysGal Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:07 pm ----------------------------------- All I am saying is, I don't think it is anywhere near as bad and crappy as u all make it out to be, but that's just one person's perspective on it ----------------------------------- HarryTasker88 Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:41 am ----------------------------------- It's not us that make it out to be so bad, it's the series itself that makes itself out to be so bad! ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:03 am ----------------------------------- Calling the actor who portrayed robocop in pd a retard is a little harsh Harry. Everybody's gotta eat. So the guy sucked at being RoboCop. What the fuck have you done that's so great. I personally don't care for PD or any of the actors in it, but don't sound like so much of a fuckin retard yourself Harry. ----------------------------------- HarryTasker88 Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:20 am ----------------------------------- So what have YOU done that's so great, may I ask?! Was I being harsh on you?! No, I was not! So, just chill out a bit man. I just gave an opinion about Fletcher, nothing more. If you don't agree with me, fine I can do nothing about it. To quote a great modern-day american philosopher: "Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one." ----------------------------------- MurphysGal Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:12 pm ----------------------------------- It's not us that make it out to be so bad, it's the series itself that makes itself out to be so bad! I think we need to agree to disagree, It is you lot that makes it out to be so bad, my opinion as a fan is that it is not bad at all, like i said not as good as the movie, but still enjoyable to watch from my point of view. It depends on what u make of it and you all can't just sit and watch it for what it is. You all have basically too high an expectation of what to expect from a Robocop movie and you should expect to be disapointed if you continue to have that attitude! I don't think it was ever meant to be made to be as spectacular and awsome looking as the film and i think no matter how much money is put into it and if they got the best actors and best director, they are never gonna get anywhere near being as good as the original movie, there was just something really special about the first film that they are never gonna capture again. I am realistic, i'm not saying it is the best one made, i am just saying it is still quite a good mini-series if you don't look at all the mistakes and faults when watching it, just watch it for what it is, a good robot series. If you really don't like it, don't watch it and stop whinging about it, just pretend it wasn't made and let the people who actually like it enjoy it instead of bringing out all the faults with it!! ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:25 pm ----------------------------------- Damn ! What is this ? The PD really dont stand for a sharp discussion or a quarrel, that was just a personal opinion from a girl ! If she like the damned PD and she is still, or has became the Robocop fan it is just good thing .Dont you thing ? :roll: But yeah, let me come in boys ... The main thing or main problem PD has is the low budget and you know without money you really cannot to get there a stars or special effects of the best level . And the another really terrible thing what PD has is the script . ( The idea of another and the same cyborg like Robocop totally got me on my knees, They at least might to change the RoboCables design uhh. But yeah there was not money .) I really dont agree about the fact that Fletcher was there totally bad or retarded or what, he just has the bad luck that he was really a little old for the Robocop role and played in the lowly budget PD . Many of us have said that Fletcher was great in the Alex Murphys scenes, yep I agree too . He is just totally "wrong" actor for Robocop mainly for the reason he is a bit smaller and old . You all have basically too high an expectation of what to expect from a Robocop movie and you... Damn, but what we all can to do when we have seen the cult with name Robocop 1 :mrgreen: sorry But you know and maybe many of guys here will agree too, but we cannot love " every crap " just for the reason it has the name "Robocop" ! You know, such things just make me angry :roll: Such "low" things just are killing the character of Robocop more and more ! Yeah, Is great to see something new with Robocop in the these days but when you see it is again a shits, you have really your eyes for crying :( and not a mood to celebrating . If you really don't like it, don't watch it and stop whinging about it, just pretend it wasn't made and let the people who actually like it enjoy it instead of bringing out all the faults with it!! This is right ! Damn we all are a Robocop fans ! And here is also many other fans of PD as we all know .. ----------------------------------- Swedish Robot Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:32 pm ----------------------------------- I think instead of whigning about how badly made u all think it was and the bad acting u think they did, i think we should all be happy that we have had the opportunity to see another Robocop type film. ... If you really don't like it, don't watch it and stop whinging about it, just pretend it wasn't made and let the people who actually like it enjoy it instead of bringing out all the faults with it!! ...You all have basically too high an expectation of what to expect from a Robocop movie and you... Just because it has robo in it doesn't mean we have to swallow it up and go for dessert. We CAN demand some kind of quality. I think i have done this analogy before but, if someone created a 2 hour robocop movie with nothing but rocks, sticks and dog turds would you still think it was great seeing another robo movie? Your points have some merit, Muprhysgal, but just because it was different does not mean it was well intentioned or executed. We can forget about it.. but forgetting about it is how we get served another plate of sticks and dog turds. Take Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. You know what was almost directly responsible for Batman's return to his celluloid crusades? Batman and Robin. So maybe one day we can thank RoboCop PD, The Series, etc. for not delivering what us as fans feel we deserve, because it may just be the reason we get something worthwhile that doesn't sully the character. And it's not so much a high expectation for the next RoboCop thing. Back when PD came out there was ENORMOUS hype amongst fans. The production crew frequented the Archive and teased us with so many things that really just fizzled out. They even hired MindChamber to do a short which was, to be frank, a lot more entertaining that a huge lot of the time wasted in PD. When Julian Grant and his team of writers came here and gave us a bunch of hot air, he was over-hyping his cheap product to it's target audience. I think that with a lot of the "senior" crew here, that's really what stung about the show; they promised us something good. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:57 pm ----------------------------------- ^ Rog put it. Though I wasn't here at the time and aren't sure if you were either MurphysGal, you say they didn't mean for it to be spectacular but the thing is what they meant doesn't matter, what they told us they were gonna deliver and what they actually delivered in the end just was not the same. Now I wasn't here for all that, thus I still saw most of PD without expectation and still didn't find it that good, like at all. Now MurphysGal, if you like it, fine. There are many who will disagree with you, myself included - but I'll leave it at that, as the reasons for our disagreement have been well-noted throughout this thread and others. I will state that Nika and Archive also put it in that just because it has 'RoboCop' in it, doesn't mean we have to like it. Take our general attitude towards this supposed 'reinvention' we may or may not be getting. ----------------------------------- HarryTasker88 Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:06 pm ----------------------------------- To me, what really ruined the show was the actor who played RoboCop, Fletcher: totally disrespectful towards both the fans and the mithology of the franchise itself: every single actor who's portrayed RoboCop after Weller tried his best to duplicate the moves nailed down by Weller on the first show. This Fletcher fella didn't even bother to watch the first movie! It's not as tough he had to sit through RoboCop 3 or the PG Tv Show (which I dig, as you know), the only thing he had to do in order to at least get the Robo moves down right was watch the original Verhoeven masterpiece. The guy didn't even bother. Now tell me he's not stupid. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:18 pm ----------------------------------- Harry, maybe you should quit while you're ahead, man. :roll: Is Fletcher the worst RoboCop actor? Hell yes. But it wasn't just him - None of the writers, or director Julian Grant, or anyone else thought to have Fletcher study the moves, or hire an actual mime artist like they did in the films. He acted cheaply and stupidly because he was part of a cheap and stupid production. Does it excuse him for his piss-poor performance? Not really. But it doesn't make him 'disrespectful to the fans', that's shit-disturbing talk there. He didn't personally disrespect us - the whole damn show did that. Though he is the guy in the RoboCop suit, you just can't single him out. ----------------------------------- HarryTasker88 Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:23 pm ----------------------------------- Why should I quit? I don't get it. I just was expressing my opinion. The whole show was cheap, and what really made it so bad, at least TO ME, was Fletcher's performance as RoboCop. It's obvious that the guys behind it all were as bad as he was. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:27 pm ----------------------------------- Fine, we got it the first time, no need to keep harping on about it, dude. ----------------------------------- HarryTasker88 Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:29 pm ----------------------------------- I agree with you about the enitire show being disrespectful to the fans. No need to be harsh on me, pal. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:34 pm ----------------------------------- I wasn't being harsh, unlike Demise with part of his post. Or at least I didn't intend for it to sound that way (and if it did sound like that to you, well, I can't help that really) I'm just saying we don't need to hear your take on it several times when it's the same opinion, I think we got you mean. That's all. :wink: ----------------------------------- HarryTasker88 Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:37 pm ----------------------------------- I just HAD to say it again because it didn't seem like you got what I meant the first time around. ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:13 pm ----------------------------------- I wasn't being harsh, unlike Demise with part of his post. You passive aggressive monster! You're not a fuckin retard Harry, but neither is Fletcher. So just go watch the series and be happy. MmmmK. ----------------------------------- Swedish Robot Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:22 pm ----------------------------------- Moar like ROBOFLOP MIRITE?! ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:12 am ----------------------------------- Ah, I was hoping someone else would post, I gave up. :b And no 'Swedish Robot', RoboFlop is [url=http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/dashjr13/bastardizations/Roboflop/1.html]right here. Something from the stone ages, there. :mrgreen: Anyway, yes, we got the idea - Fletcher = Worst thing in PD, Fletcher /= Only bad thing in PD. Is that about accurate? ----------------------------------- HarryTasker88 Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:58 am ----------------------------------- You're not a fuckin retard Harry, but neither is Fletcher. So just go watch the series and be happy. MmmmK. Go watch RoboCop 3 and be happy, demise :) ----------------------------------- RoboDemise Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:03 am ----------------------------------- Ok I will. Did you think that I was talking down to you for liking the series? I wasn't. So thank you. I will go watch robo 1, 2, and THREE and be real happy. ----------------------------------- HarryTasker88 Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:09 am ----------------------------------- Ok I will. Did you think that I was talking down to you for liking the series? I wasn't. So thank you. I will go watch robo 1, 2, and THREE and be real happy. I kinda did. But I thought you said that in a friendly and funny way :wink: ! ----------------------------------- Nika Silwerra Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:22 pm ----------------------------------- He didn't personally disrespect us - the whole damn show did that. Though he is the guy in the RoboCop suit, you just can't single him out. There is now question, why did they create whole the damn show ? Just for them own good feeling ? Maybe just they wanted to see the story also on big screen and not just only on paper ? Maybe this was by a way, some kind of homage for the old cult hero ? Or maybe did they want to show Robocop also to the younger generation ? But I am sure they mainly have disgusted and pissed off the old hard Robocop fans by this product . :roll: so silly Lack of the traditional themes as the missing of Murphys family or where a girl by his side like the Lewis or Medigan .Where they are ? Well, we know his wife and father are dead but they at least had explain some facts ? I really miss this there . In the Robocop the series the creators took many episodes with his family and it was really much more interesting to me and it is also one of the fact the Robocop series is always on many levels above PD. I dont know , but I really loved the Damian Lowe character :roll: ----------------------------------- Mephisto Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:25 pm ----------------------------------- After all this time I can definitely say I'd rather go watch two dogs fuck then sit through this abomination again. As for anyone really still wondering what went wrong with this 4 part dung heap, just try to sit through it and it will all become very clear. :turd: ----------------------------------- Officer Harvey Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:35 am ----------------------------------- My only favorite part of PD was the John Cable/RoboCable character because I thought it was interesting to see a counterpoint to Murphy's personality and even then, Julien Grant couldn't resist his shitty film instincts and dropped the ball on him REAL quick when they had him be a pawn AGAIN to some vampire cop (anybody get it?). Rest of it....well, last time I checked...still sucks ass. ----------------------------------- Deus Ex Robo Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:27 am ----------------------------------- Vampire cop? I haven't seen any Robo "movin pictures" after R3 but this shit is sounding sooooo bad I almost want to see how low they went. But I probably never will. ----------------------------------- Officer Harvey Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:34 am ----------------------------------- LOL it's a reference to another role Geraint Wyn Davies played previously, just to push the fact that he sucks as an actor...and if you haven't seen it, I wouldn't recommend watching PD....AT ALL. Not even for curiosity. ----------------------------------- Philip17 Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:17 pm ----------------------------------- I dont know , but I really loved the Damian Lowe character :roll: Maybe because he reminds you of Dick Jones?? He is corrupt executive, and kills all the OCP board and makes him self the new president :D About robocable, I liked the ideia, because Robocop is a product, he is the CPU 001, and I think robocop was intended to be made in mass production. so we would have CPU002, CPU003, CPU004, etc.... And since they failed to create the Robocop 2, they use the same design as the first CPU because it was a success :D Well, at least I can say one thing, if you are the kind of fan that likes everything about robocop movies and series, you can do a two day robocop marathon, with the movies and series :D ----------------------------------- MurphysGal Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:05 am ----------------------------------- LOL it's a reference to another role Geraint Wyn Davies played previously, just to push the fact that he sucks as an actor...and if you haven't seen it, I wouldn't recommend watching PD....AT ALL. Not even for curiosity. Thats your opinion and thats fine. I would recommed at least watching it so you can make the decision for yourself. If i took your advise and never watched it, i would be missing out on something that after watching i find i do actually enjoy. Not everyone is gonna like it, but at the same time, not everyone is gonna hate it. If we all had the same opinions and feelings about things, we would live in a very boring world!! ----------------------------------- Mephisto Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:30 am ----------------------------------- LOL it's a reference to another role Geraint Wyn Davies played previously, just to push the fact that he sucks as an actor. As a fan of Forever Knight, I disagree with that comment big time. ----------------------------------- Neoranger Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:19 pm ----------------------------------- There is a small part of me that actually likes PD. I do find the premise intriguing enough and, judging by the interview of the two writers found in this site, I cannot not recognize their love for the franchise. Still, the execution leaves a lot to be desired. Fletcher's RoboCop was hard to swallow at first, but it was at least somewhat different and not that bad when I got used to it. But the vilification of OCP in its entirety made the message a bit too heavy-handed (IMO, OCP needs a President that means well, no matter how corrupt the rest of the company is) and then there are the villains that just don't leave that great an impression; even the suits are comically over-the-top. Not crazy about the good-guy supporting cast either... or the resolution of the storyline. All in all, at least from a story and writing perspective, my main issue is that it lacked subtlety and i didn't manage to connect with most of the characters. i could probably sit down and pick a billion other issues with it, but they'd be things I wouldn't mind as much, if the aforementioned were solid. I'm a sucker for character drama and what draws me into RoboCop is the idea of a conscious Frankenstein. ----------------------------------- Philip17 Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:01 pm ----------------------------------- LOL it's a reference to another role Geraint Wyn Davies played previously, just to push the fact that he sucks as an actor. I think he is a good actor, and did his part well, as for Fletcher he did a good job as Murphy ----------------------------------- bucka607 Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:20 pm ----------------------------------- They didnt have that bad of a storyline robo 10 years on not needed that much anymore. But they really messed up with the saint thing it was just a rip off of diana/metronet in the series. And the actors were pretty bad. i like how they reffered back to the movies with the dead or alive your coming with me and ill buy that for a dollar. They even mentioned dick jones. Ifound it weird seeing Maurice Dean Wynt and Geraint Whyn Davies in it though after seeing them in the series all those years ago. ----------------------------------- Diesel_85 Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:56 pm ----------------------------------- what went wrong with the PD series?? Page freakin Fletcher....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ----------------------------------- robocop87 Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:14 am ----------------------------------- I bought Prime Directives:Meltdown the other day (the other 3 are on their way)...I was all excited to watch it,put it in the dvd player...pressed play....watched to the part where robocop drives through the OCP window and then he steps out....THUD....but not the THUD that I am expecting to hear...it kinda sounded like someone dropped a washer out of a window..and I was like...uhhh WTH was that...then I watched him get hit by lazers and spaz like C3PO getting struck by lightning....and not even leave a mark....yet I watched him in Robocop 1 get shot at by the entire Detriot Police Department and barely flinch....then I watch Darth Mauls sister haul out her double sided light saber and go all Jedi on him and kick him through a window.....now I am only guessing that Robocop is atleast a couple hundred pounds if not more and this woman kicks him through a window?...I thought their whole approach to PD was a big joke....I wasn't a big fan of the Robocop Series but it is a masterpiece compared to PD.I dunno who told Page Fletcher he could act but they lied....Atleast Richard Eden knew how to move and looked good in the helmet....Page Fletcher made Robocop look like he aged and to me he didn't fit the suit...anyone else see him nose under the helmet?...and the chin piece was out a bit from his chin....and the way his lips moved when he talked....I think that was the worst part besides the way he said things.And the continious use of saying from the first 3 movies....dead or alive your coming with me,come quietly or there will be...trouble..over and over again.....plain annoying after hearing it in Robocop 1-3,Robocop:The Series and now in PD ( I didn't watch the cartoons so I don't know if he said those things in them)......and now they want to make a new Robocop movie to come out in 2013...I fear it will be the final nail in Alex Murphy's coffin.....to me there is only 3 Robocop movies that matter (however the 3rd one kinda sucked but luckily they stopped there)...I love my Robocop dvd collection but PD will not be at the front of it. ----------------------------------- robodisciple Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:36 am ----------------------------------- The whole idea/plot of Robocop PD is a good concept but the way it was "executed" just sucked! The acting was terrible! ("Yeee haaaa!!!" as murphy's son yells while making a jump over a bridge. really?) The directing was terrible. The production was good for a mini series. The bone machine character was just stupid! Bone machine was to much of a cheesy comic book villian. And also robocops head prosthesis was weak! It had no detail at all into it which pretty much just killed it for me when i first saw robo's head without the helmet. I mean it just looked like they put a piece of molded plastic to the back of his head and said fuck it! :ohdear: ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:57 am ----------------------------------- I mean it just looked like they put a piece of molded plastic to the back of his head and said fuck it! :ohdear: Nail on the head :yessir: The makeup looked way rushed; notice the black undergarment around the neck. The script called for a lot of helmetless RoboCop, but you could tell they gave a rat's ass about it. Probably got spent on a weekend coke bender in Toronto. :wink: This movie series was hyped up on Sci Fi channel back in 2000. Dark Justice was "BAH!!" But in comparison to the next three installments, it was a masterpiece. It was Dark, Brooding, kinda sappy in some parts, and even a little thrilling. Meltdown wasn't a bad follow-up to Dark Justice. But it was kind of a prime time 80's cop show at that point. Pop in Resurrection, and shit goes south. Fast. The last installment is utterly impossible for me to watch. WTF kind of special effect is that for a computer virus to act to a human body? These movies were weak. Dark Justice is about as far into PD I want to get. ----------------------------------- Burnout Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:34 am ----------------------------------- And, oh god, the 15 minutes of Robocop awkwardly walking up stairs during the "finale".... ----------------------------------- robodisciple Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:25 am ----------------------------------- I mean it just looked like they put a piece of molded plastic to the back of his head and said fuck it! :ohdear: Nail on the head :yessir: The makeup looked way rushed; notice the black undergarment around the neck. The script called for a lot of helmetless RoboCop, but you could tell they gave a rat's ass about it. Probably got spent on a weekend coke bender in Toronto. :wink: This movie series was hyped up on Sci Fi channel back in 2000. Dark Justice was "BAH!!" But in comparison to the next three installments, it was a masterpiece. It was Dark, Brooding, kinda sappy in some parts, and even a little thrilling. Meltdown wasn't a bad follow-up to Dark Justice. But it was kind of a prime time 80's cop show at that point. Pop in Resurrection, and shit goes south. Fast. The last installment is utterly impossible for me to watch. WTF kind of special effect is that for a computer virus to act to a human body? These movies were weak. Dark Justice is about as far into PD I want to get. I agree with you Sean_001 the only one that was decent was dark justice even though the acting in this series sucked ass! Paige fletcher was awfull as Robocop! I mean the guy couldn't even walk like ROBO much less act! I did also like the idea of ROBO cable but then again the actor playing this role seemed like he was too tale for the robocop suit lol! I mean is it just me or did he always look like he was hunched over when was walking?? Oh and don't even get me started on his cheesy tag lines either! " I got yo black ass now!" Lol really??!! :ohdear: ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:56 pm ----------------------------------- There was an unneeded touch of inter-racism in the later movies. ----------------------------------- vegasrobo Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:28 pm ----------------------------------- There was an unneeded touch of inter-racism in the later movies. I noticed that aswell... ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:05 pm ----------------------------------- The whole idea/plot of Robocop PD is a good concept but the way it was "executed" just sucked! I agree. I think the whole miseries had potential to be great, but the lack of budget and the way it was filmed was a letdown. The original plot has a really bigger scale, and the whole concept it´s more ciberpunk/sci-fi than the final result. I started to mess with the episodes, editing stuff. Sadly, there´s no way to separate the audiotracks in a fine way, to add different audio FX and music. Maybe I´ll upload to youtube some of the stuff I was doing, just for fun. This movie series was hyped up on Sci Fi channel back in 2000. Dark Justice was "BAH!!" But in comparison to the next three installments, it was a masterpiece. It was Dark, Brooding, kinda sappy in some parts, and even a little thrilling. For me Dark Justice was the best of the three. A little bit slow and Robo appears a little, but it has mystery, action and plot. In the next episodes they got mindless action at some scenes that gets long and boring. It also has Robo as the main character, while the rest of the miniseries all the stuff gets to Cable. ----------------------------------- Silicon Knight Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:31 pm ----------------------------------- Just watched the first "movie" (episode) yesterday, more than 10 years after its release. The pizza I was eating was nice, but this... I totally agree with those saying it's poor (understatement...) I was expecting the usual early 00's TV sci-fi/superhero schlock, yes, but I wasn't prepared about how bad they got Robo himself. It would be far more watchable if at least the main character was recognizable as Robocop. Robo is supposed to be physically intimidating - the actor was noticeably shorter than Weller; Robo's choreographed movements are a visual trademark - the actor moved worse than an untrained cosplayer; Robo has a trademark sound when he moves and walks - this "Robo" sounded like an empty tin box (of course this isn't the actor's fault). In fact, Robocop in PD seemed like one of those fake Batmen in Nolan's The Dark Knight. A pretender in hockey pads. I don't think they needed billions and additional months of filming schedule to get at least Robo himself right. Just clever casting of an unknown (i.e. cheap) actor that looked the part, and someone to choreograph his movements. Oh, and the correct sound effects. Inexcusable... (On the positive side, I liked the soundtrack). (P.S. If I talked about that villain with the Shao Kahn mask, you'll ban me from the site for bad language!) ----------------------------------- NOF Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:15 am ----------------------------------- The actual stories were ok, but the scripts, acting and direction were cheap and uneventful. ----------------------------------- razgriz21 Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:09 am ----------------------------------- It was cheesy and looked too TV like in my opinion. Lacked the satire, humor, and grit of the original. ----------------------------------- Rob O'Coplin Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:23 pm ----------------------------------- What went wrong?...everything lol. Budget, Acting..but the SFX were awesome... so realistic :lol: .. and why is it that when Robocop gets shot at, he starts having some sort of Seizure of he goes into anaphylactic shock and starts twitching with every bullet that hits him.? I mean, that just ruined the whole thing for me...that and the acting. :ohdear: I don't know what they were thinking when they came up with this. I was so stoked when I heard they were doing this "mini-series" for Robocop. Then, it just flops like a fish out of water... kind of like when Robocop gets shot at in this debacle. This "Mini-series" is just as bad as Robocop 3... if not worse.. Robocop 3 was made to be PG-13, so we knew that it would be kinda crappy, but this was supposed to be edgy and dark like the original movies..BAH! ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:31 pm ----------------------------------- Why is it that when Robocop gets shot at, he starts having some sort of Seizure of he goes into anaphylactic shock and starts twitching with every bullet that hits him. That´s a good question, and I think the director and actor would have something to say. As I would think, the script would say something along making the scene, cops reaching Robo and shot him. Also, the scene would work better if RoboCop would only stand while taking all the bullets. "I´m composed of titanum, I don´t believe you are". How do you say that phrase after those moves? ----------------------------------- Rob O'Coplin Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:39 pm ----------------------------------- Exactly, none of it made any sense! Maybe the director thought that having Robo having his seizures when he gets shot would make things more dramatic? I didn't find it dramatic; Comical, yes but not dramatic. I dunno it just ruined the entire series for me.. Oh, and Robocable sucked too. Why couldn't OCP upgrade Murphy, yet they came up with this new Robocable piece of crap idea. A lot that happened in the series really boggled my mind. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:53 pm ----------------------------------- Since this seems to come up again here and there, I'll just quote a few gems of wisdom throughout the thread so people won't have to hunt them all down and will get the idea about this thing right here - Oh God, so much wrong... I just re-watched it the day before yesterday to remind myself how much it sucked. I have an incomplete list thus far, and I tried to avoid comparing it to the previous films and just viewing it as its own entity: Page Fletcher: terrible look, terrible delivery, terrible movement. Maurice Dean Wint(sp?): Bad delivery and expression inside the suit, not one of the other actors (aside from flashback Murphy) had a clue how to interact with him, making him look like an overacting jackass compared to their underacting lameness. Ann R. Key: WTF? Not only is having another character named Ann (albeit spelled differently) fucking lazy and awkward to hear Robo say when not referring to Lewis, but everything about her from concept to actress to execution is eye-rolling. Lightsabers and '90s Flash TV series quality "super speed" effects? Shameful. Pretty much every actor. They should have cut down on the speaking roles, gotten a stronger core cast and went for aspiring actors with something to prove instead of Canadian television standbys. Visual effects: Holy hell, these were bad. Badly roto-scoped stock explosions and sparks terribly blurred from resizing, giving Robo bullet selection options, adding muzzle flashes to the fronts of bikes that have no guns on them, Predator cloaking BS... Pacing: Interrupting action scenes for intense OCP boardroom action??? Count me in, who doesn't want to see scenes chopped to bits so they can insert some pointless chatter about banal OCP BS? Editing: Yes, separate from pacing because... wow. The constant Awesome Slow-Motion (tm) stretching out action to three times their optimal running time is just too much. Having characters repeat the same line four times because they need to fill their 90 minute running time with only 35 pages of actual script... blech. If this thing falls apart during casual viewing, watching it under a microscope is an excercise in pure frustration because it fails on so many levels. SFX: Robo sounds like he's got crumpled garbage cans on his feet, dragging and clanking without any change throughout the film, regardless of how damaged he is. Annoying audio whenever computer's being used, which is standard, but not when these damned things are so prevalent in the program. Direction: Julian Grant has no clue how to do his job beyond the technicalities. He got hired because he had a history of delivering on time and without budget overruns. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought people got hired to do jobs because they were good, not because they were "good enough". CompUSA just went out of business because they went for the "good enough" strategy. You have one chance to make a film good or bad. You don't hire people who are "good enough" because in doing so you have squandered your chance, and ruined all the other possibly creative efforts focused at the project. You are only as strong as your weakest link. Plot: Big one here. "Bio-tech virus" that infects both electronics and organics? Okay, throw me some techno babble to explain it away and you've got yourself a deal. Oh, couldn't bother to try and give an explanation because even you guys thought it was the stupidest fucking idea in the world? Kaydick? Random bleached blond mad scientist dude. Alrighty, what's his motivation, why does he want to destroy the world? "It's sick". Wow, that was a cop out. Why were you hired again? Oh, it was thrown into the submission pile as a joke? That makes sense. It reads like slash fiction without the sex. Moving on, this doesn't deserve serious critical thought. Writing: Some people liked the writing. I thought it was plotting and banal. There was two film's worth material in the script, possibly three depending on the director. Not that it mattered, the entire thing came off like it was written by the resident high-schooler/aspiring writer the day before shooting onto cue cards held off screen, which might explain why the entire damned thing is disjointed. And why "What are you prepared to do?" pops up a half dozen times in each film. RoboCop's signature line, "Dead or alive, you're coming with me", shows up twice in RC1. Twice. How many times down Arnold say "I'll be back" in Term1? Once. When you shove catchphrases down our throats we will choke and despise you for it. I would have mentioned budget, but I don't think that was as big an issue as most make it. They had $12 mil (the original had $13 mil, which was a low-budget film itself, I don't know why it's referenced as a high-budget film in press-related shit) and didn't have the costs of designing and creating the suits, merely pulling some new casts from the old molds, which Hansing could do for less than 2k a set back in the day. They didn't have to spend cash on ED-209 or his effects, nor waste money on a RoboCar that never even made it on screen. Digital effects all but eliminated the overhead for RoboVision shots, they didn't blow up any buildings (aside from stock from The Series) though they did have explosions, I'll give them that. -- Actually, I totally forgot to even mention the music. A few bits, like the music used when Cable was chasing down Robo in the car (before Robo went into the water) were cool, but the western thing they used most of the time was horribly misplaced. I don't even know what they were thinking with that one. It wasn't dramatic or cool or memorable, but it should have at least fit. And I didn't think I really needed to expound upon Bone Machine. I don't think I'm the only one who found it awkward for an old bald man to be some supposed nemesis seemingly named after a porn star. -- But I'll also give them a bitch slap for thinking that anything they did was even remotely close to cool/thought provoking/critically sound/endearing/enjoyable. When the only decent things in six hours of "entertainment" can be summed up in individual shots amidst entire other scenes you've got a pile of shit on your hands. Their hands were stained with it by the time this thing hti the airwaves. The negative aspects of PD over weigh the good aspects. Yes, there are SOME good parts in it, but there weren't enough to save this series. Whenever you watch something, you look for the good and bad points. Well for most of us, clearly there weren't enough good points in it to say it was a good try. The Robo movements is only one of the bad points, and having the director and actor not even knowing anything about the character just adds to how badly this was executed. And of course the movements matter, because that is WHAT defines RoboCop. -Fletcher could not play RoboCop. He was also too short for the role, granted he did a good job playing Murphy, but your actor needs to be able to play BOTH parts. -The budget. While it's usually not an issue as I have pointed out for some, all four of the "films" had a budget even LESS than the original RoboCop film. Unfortunately, it shows. -The director was hired because he was known for efficiency and not quality. Meaning they hired him because they knew he could do it fast and on a budget. Apparently, doing it right doesn't count here... -The script had a lot of problems. The writers said they were RoboCop fans, but the films did not make me feel RoboCop. The story did have potential to be good, but it wasn't executed right. -The acting was pretty horrible at times too. It's hard to concentrate on story when the acting is bad. The films also tend to pace itself VERY slowly. To the point where you can't help but yawn. Suspense is good, too much suspense is boring. Even with good story, EVERYTHING will come down to how it's all shown, and it wasn't shown well in this case. Seriously Budget is a NON issue, absolutely ridiculous anyone could use that as kind of excuse to a bad film, its simply ludicrous. When making a movie you're story has to be powerful, directing percise and excution flawless, and you can direct that movie with a tyco tapedeck handycam. You can not work the other way around and expect a larger budget or more effects to band aid what was a shallow story and horrible acting. Case in point The new starWars Trilogy. Robocop PD was fail, plain and simple and neither the director nor its writers understood the complexity of the character, though I give them credit for trying. ----------------------------------- FremenDar007 Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:53 pm ----------------------------------- Very low budget/production values, Page Fletcher never even attempted to imitate Peter Weller nor Robert John Burke with his Robo-Movements, the script felt very lacking and not very punctual. If they wanted to fully emulate the style of the first film, they should've reworked their script as a true alternate sequel instead of a fast and quick rushed production. No Basil Poledouris or same production design style. Never even felt it was in the main RoboCop universe and on the same drivel as RoboCop 3. Extremely bad acting and no humanity nor empathy for any characters. It's an afterthought to the RoboCop universe and wasn't very well thought out. Makes me with they could've rethought everything and not make a lazy mini-series. RoboMidget was a failure. Needed completely different recasting, a FAR greater budget and obviously a different director. Maybe even Jeannot Szwarc or another director who has quality as their first importance and what the rest of the previous poster quoted. This should've had the same quality/production value as TOTAL RECALL 2070 which I highly enjoyed and wished there were a second season for. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:36 am ----------------------------------- I think with some tweaks it could be watchable. I tried it before, and some weeks ago I started working on it again. Cutting stuff and making it shorter (less flashbacks, less unnecesary blabla...). Sadly, if I could make it, it´d have to be dubbed from the start, as I don´t have a way to get only the voices of the actors, without getting in the mix FX and music. Here´s the stuff I did (rough edit): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB8GQ0KfYdM&feature=youtu.be After the titles, MediaNet. Cut it to show the following scene, as you´ll see it has some differences. A more direct cut, I think. Just put FX from the movies (and other sources) and did an original score less "mariachi". A friend asked if he could see Robo with the same FX, so I put the silent edit I already had and put it some quick FX (and the previous track as a temp file): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daAk4U4bbQI&feature=youtu.be I even asked Julian Grant if there´s an "unedited" version of the film (just film and voice, as we already saw some outtakes and other stuff on Youtube before), but he replied, saying that the DVD is the thing he has. The original stuff was destroyed after the edit. ----------------------------------- TWayne001 Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:43 am ----------------------------------- Prime directives is a... prime example ...of how RoboCop isn't just about an R rating! As a teen watching this I thought this was going to finally be a serious take on RoboCop after years of crap. But this was the worst crap of them all. How wrong I was. *shudder* ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:28 pm ----------------------------------- Prime directives is a... prime example ...of how RoboCop isn't just about an R rating! Bah, whats with the PG-13 train lately? RoboCop has graphic violence. Hell to an extent it defined graphic violence. That said, RoboCop actually is about an R-rating, which is much more than just some gore. Maybe not just about it or all about, but it plays a role, and anyone who doesn't really think so needs to check the original TV Series again. Now just because the violence didn't make PD better doesn't mean it can just be excluded, let alone that an R rating (which means more than just violence) can be excluded from other RoboCop films. That's not a valid argument. PD was 'EPIC FAIL' miles before violence even factored into it. ----------------------------------- DocLathropBrown Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:36 pm ----------------------------------- Bah, whats with the PG-13 train lately? RoboCop has graphic violence. Hell to an extent it defined graphic violence. That said, RoboCop actually is about an R-rating, which is much more than just some gore. Maybe not just about it or all about, but it plays a role, and anyone who doesn't really think so needs to check the original TV Series again. Now just because the violence didn't make PD better doesn't mean it can just be excluded, let alone that an R rating (which means more than just violence) can be excluded from other RoboCop films. That's not a valid argument. PD was 'EPIC FAIL' miles before violence even factored into it. I think it's poignant now because in the wake of the remake, some people's entire basis for hating the remake is simply the rating. There's a need for perspective even in evaluating the original film. If the original film had a lacklustre story, half-hearted acting but all the same action, it still wouldn't have been good. It would have been like PD, actually! 'R' can make a good movie richer. But it can't save a poor film. Some people act like it can, and they act like a PG-13 is the end of the world and the film couldn't be anything other than shit. In fact, I'd say that if, in an alternate universe, the original film was PG-13 and had the violence of the remake (Robo kills people, but no sight of blood), nobody would have complained, and the film would have been just as loved. ----------------------------------- Archive Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:38 pm ----------------------------------- The remake works without the blood, sure, but would have been even better with it. When someone gets shot we should see the consequences of that and not turn it into some cartoon violence where people just flip over. I'm an adult, I want to see some blood and gore. Anyway, that is going a bit offtopic from this PD topic. :) ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:02 pm ----------------------------------- In fact, I'd say that if, in an alternate universe, the original film was PG-13 and had the violence of the remake (Robo kills people, but no sight of blood), nobody would have complained, and the film would have been just as loved. The actual story, structure and heart/soul of the movie would have still made it amazing, yes. But I disagree somewhat - Not that we wouldn't have loved it, but it wouldn't have had the same meaning and power it has. Again, the violence is one of its trademarks, for better or worse. The violence was a representation of a vision shared mostly by Verhoeven, and to serve a point and frame of mind. The violence isn't elliptic, it's in your face, its brutal, it's meant to convey the certain reality of the film itself, it is an integral part of the film. It has true meaning and purpose, and if it wasn't there, the film would have lost something, it wouldn't be as iconic or meaningful. That said - 'R' can make a good movie richer. But it can't save a poor film. This is true. Still, RoboCop is something that generally benefits from that magic 'R', as Archive said, the violence could have helped, and more than that, it would have helped other elements that were lackluster in the remake according to some reviews, efts in particular. In regards to PD, yes, violence didn't make it better, but lack of it would only have made it worse. But as Archive said, that's not the point here - The point here is PD = EPIC FAIL. (Note I hate that phrase, and the fact I'm willing to look past that hate to post it in regards to this shitpile should tell you something) ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:47 pm ----------------------------------- I couldn't care less about PD or TV series, but clicked to see whats dragging this topic to 8 pages. On the subject of violence, I just want to chim in - its not a black and white issue as with any other film. Violence in Robocop actually is an integral and unique part of Robocop's style and feel. The violence in Robocop isn't just violence, its an OVER THE TOP violence, which elevates it to ridiculousness to the point its intentionally funny its so over the top, and that type of humor goes with the sick sense of humor of 87 Robocop, along with social and American satire. The over the top violence and American social satire defines the style of Robocop. Aside from being funny by turning up the knobs to ridicules levels (Emil's splash especially), it also defines the reality and world of Robocop just as much as its cruel and cold villains - its brutal, bloody and merciless. Its a hardcore, hellish version of our world, and unfortunately a reality in many overly crime ridden places in the world, not necessarily to such extent in America Theres a reason why Murphys crucification grabs so many people, and why people were always moved or disturbed by it. Its because of its cold, straight forward brutality, which defined the cruel world of the mythology and the villain characters _____________________________ http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/ ----------------------------------- TWayne001 Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:54 am ----------------------------------- Bah, whats with the PG-13 train lately? RoboCop has graphic violence. Hell to an extent it defined graphic violence. That said, RoboCop actually is about an R-rating, which is much more than just some gore. Maybe not just about it or all about, but it plays a role, and anyone who doesn't really think so needs to check the original TV Series again. Now just because the violence didn't make PD better doesn't mean it can just be excluded, let alone that an R rating (which means more than just violence) can be excluded from other RoboCop films. That's not a valid argument. PD was 'EPIC FAIL' miles before violence even factored into it. I think it's poignant now because in the wake of the remake, some people's entire basis for hating the remake is simply the rating. There's a need for perspective even in evaluating the original film. If the original film had a lacklustre story, half-hearted acting but all the same action, it still wouldn't have been good. It would have been like PD, actually! 'R' can make a good movie richer. But it can't save a poor film. Some people act like it can, and they act like a PG-13 is the end of the world and the film couldn't be anything other than shit. In fact, I'd say that if, in an alternate universe, the original film was PG-13 and had the violence of the remake (Robo kills people, but no sight of blood), nobody would have complained, and the film would have been just as loved. I COMPLETELY agree with you. It's more about the character, wethere it includes violence or not is a non factor to me personally, and there's so many people UP IN ARMS about the pg13 rating of the new one. It's a very debatable subject indeed, and I just think it depends on how you feel about violence in general. Verhoeven said himself Cutting the original film down made it even more violent, because it allows your imagination to think of something even worse then what could be shown. It's all about the characters, the atmosphere and music to me. Just HAUNTING. If they wouldn't have shown Murphy's hand getting blown off, it wouldn't have effected how powerful that scene is. You connect the dots. He's getting shot to death, and you can only imagine how fucking terrible that is. You can see the pain in Wellers face. On the other side of the coin, the over the top violence does contribute to the sick humor of it all for sure. but not everyone sees it that way, trust me. We've obviously picked this film apart, and it's obvious to us, but the humorous violence flys right over the GAs head, it would be just straight gruesome and gratuitous. That's fine though, this movie isn't for everyone, it shouldn't be, it works. Personally I don't think it's needed. Sure it's awesome and "adult", but I don't particularly care about it, it never was a deciding factor in my opinion on the film one way or the other. If RoboCop was rated PG-13 back in the day, it would be just as good of a movie. The characters, story, atmosphere, music, acting, cool moments, everything would all still be in tact. You can have the drugs and crap and still get away with pg13. Just less fuck words (leave one of two in there), gushing blood, and get rid of those needless flashes of titties. Still a masterpiece. The only thing the R rating did for me in my life is tell people this is not a kids movie many think it is. Made it less embarrassing to love growing up when the tv series was in full swing. IMO of course. I just think some people obsess over an r rated RoboCop, as if it's the ONLY way to interpret him. It's not. It makes you sound dumb to me. (Mostly people that spam on Robocops facebook page lol) ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:24 pm ----------------------------------- Oh god. Are we really so desperate to like everything about the remake that it is suggested that RoboCop 1987 with no blood would be just as good as an R rated version? I suggest seeking out the edited TV version of RoboCop to see that terrible suggestion in reality. That version even edits out all the dirty words just in case that also offends anyone. Airheads! :) ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:29 pm ----------------------------------- "You´re gonna be a bad mother crusher". :lol: ----------------------------------- TWayne001 Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:29 pm ----------------------------------- Oh god. Are we really so desperate to like everything about the remake that it is suggested that RoboCop 1987 with no blood would be just as good as an R rated version? I suggest seeking out the edited TV version of RoboCop to see that terrible suggestion in reality. That version even edits out all the dirty words just in case that also offends anyone. Airheads! :) Not talking about a TV edit of an R rated movie. I don't need to seek it out, I've seen it plenty of times. Just in an alternate reality where the original is rated PG 13, you guys wouldn't even KNOW what an R rated RoboCop would be like, yet you'd all love it the exact same. If you found nothing else in RoboCop beyond the violence then your just doin it wrong. It was never a deciding factor for me, especially as a very small child. If anything it was the suit and sound effects at that age. The Violence didn't register with me. Not desperate to like everything about the reboot, that doesn't make sense with what i was saying. I just support different interpretations and idea with characters i love. If a new vision doesn't call for the violence of an R then thats who this RoboCop is. The character can still be spot on. ----------------------------------- RMorrison81 Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:42 pm ----------------------------------- Why me... "Drop the gun, you are under arrest..." Why me, why me, why me, why me, WHY me.... It was awful. ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:57 pm ----------------------------------- But let me get this straight. In essence you are saying you don't need the blood in RoboCop, it is not important. So basically you would be just fine watching the edited version and enjoy it just as much...? ----------------------------------- KidGoesWild Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:59 pm ----------------------------------- Personally I don't care if the reboot is R or PG 13, I don't think theres a need for R, really, especially since you can get away with a lot and bring a pretty dark story with PG 13 (TDK for example), and especially since its a different take on the story, it isn't a sequel (which I would strongly believe would require the same elements and style, something only one sequel had...). But what I AM saying is that the violence was an integral part of the original Robocop, along with American social commentary and satire and the Frankenstein story, violence was very signature to the original movie, very, by late 80s it was known as a very violent film and probably most violent scifi to that point, and as a youngster, for me it played a big role because the violence was so intense and it felt like a forbidden adult movie, and it was almost traumatizing, and again, it defined the world of Robocop, and that cynism and cruelty of its world, where no one is safe, and no one has any mercy. At the time I didn't get the humor of the over the top violence, but whenever I show it to anybody, they always do, especially when Emil gets splashed. _____________________________ http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/ ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:09 pm ----------------------------------- The new Batman movies are a prime example of a PG rating that works. Especially the Dark Knight felt very violent and disturbing, and that had a lot do with the tone they went with. The Robo remake is tame not just because of the lack of violence, but because the whole movie has been made safer and more toned down. Kid friendly. And I'm guessing that is exactly what MGM wanted, and Jose Padilha delivered on that. (also, I think this discussion is interesting so I will split this topic up into its own soon ) ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:36 pm ----------------------------------- The new Batman movies are a prime example of a PG rating that works. Especially the Dark Knight felt very violent and disturbing, and that had a lot do with the tone they went with. The Robo remake is tame not just because of the lack of violence, but because the whole movie has been made safer and more toned down. Kid friendly. And I'm guessing that is exactly what MGM wanted, and Jose Padilha delivered on that. (also, I think this discussion is interesting so I will split this topic up into its own soon ) Well, before this gets split, let me put my post on here, then move it as you please. I remember somebody saying elsewhere that in Batman's case, he's vigilante, but not an executioner. There is violence and rough tones, but not extreme. Extreme violence and themes aren't in their style, and not the tone of those kinda of films - They're not dealing with excessive violence, vicious humor, satire or any provoking aspects that would, in my opinion, necessitate an R rating. And they don't need to - As Archive said, it works fine there, it's much simpler - It's Batman, not RoboCop. The original movie did do all of these things, and it seems to me that the remake had the feeling of wanting to tackle these elements as well but stopped short, half-assed, as Archive alluded to here. The only other example of a PG-13 RoboCop is R3, and its the same deal - half-assed, safe, toned down and neutered. None of that is RoboCop in the original sense, don't see really why it has to be so in the remake. In truth, I'm with KGW, I don't have to have an R rating, if the film is good within the bounds of PG13, great. I can like a less lethal and less violent RoboCop if it is done well. But I'm not sure that would ever be the case, and the new film seems to exemplify that - It isn't done well. It can't do anything R rated and doesn't seem to make up for it. Now when I watch it, I may disagree - I may like it and think it works fine as PG-13 film, but even so, I'll still probably wonder what more they could have done and been able to delve into with an R rating, I still will have preferred that. There are films where you can end it at PG-13, there's really nothing more to it, I honestly don't believe RoboCop 2014 will be one of them though. But that's the new film. It can be PG-13, and even work. However, a point was made that the original could be PG13 as well, to that I now bring what should have been my original, unqualified response - WRONG. Personally I don't think it's needed. Sure it's awesome and "adult", but I don't particularly care about it, it never was a deciding factor in my opinion on the film one way or the other. If RoboCop was rated PG-13 back in the day, it would be just as good of a movie. The characters, story, atmosphere, music, acting, cool moments, everything would all still be in tact. You can have the drugs and crap and still get away with pg13. Just less fuck words (leave one of two in there), gushing blood, and get rid of those needless flashes of titties. Still a masterpiece. The only thing the R rating did for me in my life is tell people this is not a kids movie many think it is. Made it less embarrassing to love growing up when the tv series was in full swing. Again, Wrong. The film would have been good, but never would it have been as good as we regard it today. We've said it over and over, the violence in RoboCop is as much a part of the film as its satire, the 'lost paradise' theme, Poledouris' music, and Peter Weller. You can't just take it away and have the film be the same, just plain wrong. Archive said it, you want a non-violent, non-offensive R1? Watch the old TV edits, where they don't curse, don't show that 'needless' titty flash (no such thing to me, that said, even it had a legitimate point, obviously you didn't catch it though) and you don't see what happens when someone gets shot - take all that away and tell me it's still as powerful a film - Go on, take Archive at his word, and honestly tell us you would enjoy the TV edit of the movie because it's essentially the same thing as what you're talking about. Actually, never mind that, just tell us it's really just as good a film or even the same film. Not gonna happen, 'cause it ain't. Now if you don't like the violence, ok, but you not caring for it and the film supposedly 'not needing' it is not the same thing. Do you absolutely need graphic violence in a film? No. But in terms of RoboCop, and what it is, the piece of art it is, implying it's unnecessary is absurd - It's something that helps make the movie itself and without it, it never would have had the attention, reverence or status it had then and still has today. Ask general people who have seen R1 and whether they like it or not, you'll always get a point about the violence. And it's not like it was the only graphically violent film out there. It wasn't just the blood and gore but how it was presented, how it was used, and how it enhances the film outside of sheer gratuity, something that can't be said for most other equally violent films - There's more to it than shock value here. You want to ignore that, fine, you can even say it's not needed in the remake perhaps, but saying the original film can live without it is ridiculous and ludicrous. May as well say you didn't need Weller in the suit, or the 'home' sequence. This before we even get to the other points I was trying to make about an R rating. It's not just the damn violence. Drug use, language, adult themes and tones - They are all major and indeed necessary parts of the original film. And no, if there was ANY of that, snorting one hit, saying even one 'Fuck' - Nine times out of ten it still would have been R back in the day. PG13 had a much narrower gap then, you can't compare it to today's PG13, its just not the same. Hell, R1 pales to some R-rated films I've seen released in more recent years, and R1 was a solid 'X' before a bunch of cuts brought it down. Make your 'alternate universe' theory all you want, but for me, an alternate universe has a trilogy with a working quasi-Corporate Wars sequel and a better fleshed out single Miller film, a TV show with less gadgets and more grit, and a reboot more about capturing the essence and feel of the original and less about pandering to bored antsy teenagers and Chinamen with cool action and safe tones. You said if we found nothing in the film beyond the violence we're wrong. All anyone said here is that the violence is a necessary part of the original film, and that the R rating is what the original film is about, and that means a lot more than some big blood squibs. That all having been said, in all of this, there has no solid reason given as to why the remake works as a PG13 film, nothing that addresses the flaws and issues that have been brought up with it, no real reasons against having violence and R-rated tones and aspects other than 'It doesn't need them'. And that's debatable. Yet I don't see a debate about that, all I see is a bunch of 'R1 could be this and that', which has precisely dick to do with the new film. Even if the original RoboCop supposedly would have been good at PG-13, that is no argument that the remake is/will be good at PG-13, not when it's a different film, as we have been constantly told. Get off it. I don't agree with a PG13 RoboCop at it's core because thats not what RoboCop was. Toning down the franchise was a mistake and RoboCop has suffered for it. And apparently history repeats itself - same thing seems to be happening with the remake. In closing, again, I wouldn't mind if it was rated PG13 if it actually was a good film in those bounds. The problem is the remake doesn't seem to be, and I agree with what others have posited - The film would have benefited from an R rating. I don't think this film was originally intended to be PG13, and I definitely don't think a PG13 RoboCop is RoboCop as I understand it. PG13 films of this kind are so to be non-offensive, play it safe and reach a wider audience. None of that was ever what RoboCop was about, I don't see why the new film couldn't have retained a bit of that. ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:50 pm ----------------------------------- Funny thing is, RoboCop3 is more violent and shocking than the remake. Robo3 features actual bullet wounds, blood squibs and a guy getting his neck broken by Otomo. The way Anne Lewis is shot down is more graphical and bloody than anything we see in RoboCop 2014. :| ----------------------------------- Zentron Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:26 pm ----------------------------------- I think to simplify what went wrong with PD was as so: 1. The script 2. The acting 3. The lack of funds 4. The fact someone decided to actually give them any money at all to make it! ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:45 pm ----------------------------------- I still find it mildly terrifying that Prime Directives had a $12 million budget. Sure, that's a million dollars less than the original film, and there's inflation to deal with, but... ... The Series spent about $1.5 million an episode. That means, minute by minute and second by second, PD had the same budget as TS. And yet managed to have less variety in locations, less extensive/elaborate sets, a smaller cast, fewer visual and special effects, et cetera, et cetera. How poor was the planning on this that $12 million looked like a high-end YouTube vid? ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:09 pm ----------------------------------- I still find it mildly terrifying that Prime Directives had a $12 million budget. Sure, that's a million dollars less than the original film, and there's inflation to deal with, but... ... The Series spent about $1.5 million an episode. That means, minute by minute and second by second, PD had the same budget as TS. And yet managed to have less variety in locations, less extensive/elaborate sets, a smaller cast, fewer visual and special effects, et cetera, et cetera. How poor was the planning on this that $12 million looked like a high-end YouTube vid? As I think it was, PD was done as an excuse to release a new Roboseries before the rights expire. It felt rushed, and I´m sure it was rushed (one of the writers told me that they´d need more time to develop the whole thing). I think it starts good ("Dark Justice" wasn´t bad, but it needs more action), but as the films go, everything goes a little bit weird and had some scenes that doesn´t make any sense: - The "composed of titanium" line after he was "dancing with the bullets". - On the last episode, after they go to the OCP building, Robo asks to not hurt them "too badly", yet he liked Ann R. Key way to deal with a security dude with her "lightsaber" ("nice moves", after she kill him). For example. And I read some other words by people who worked on the production and they blame the director on the whole thing. Grant was hired because they worked fast, but I think Fireworks didn´t care for the quality aspect. ----------------------------------- RoboTrap Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:14 pm ----------------------------------- The director worked fast, and he worked cheap, and they were indeed desperate to release it before their rights expired. But I'm wondering when that expiration was to happen. How much time did they really have? ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:25 pm ----------------------------------- The director worked fast, and he worked cheap, and they were indeed desperate to release it before their rights expired. But I'm wondering when that expiration was to happen. How much time did they really have? The writters had 7 months to do the script. They were hired in 1998, where Brad and Joseph would write an episode for the 4 film series. In 1999 Fireworks decided to change the idea and the production company gave them some tips to follow. The movies go green light and they started filming in September. ----------------------------------- ElectricSoul Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:07 pm ----------------------------------- yeah,it was a super-fast turnaround time from script to TV screen. I tried - tried- watching these again this past week. I only made it through the first 3. Jesus.... you know,I think I could get past all the shitty cheap effects if they had just hired competent actors. Fletcher isn't bad as Murphy, but sucks as Robo. everyone else looks like they're not happy to be there,or their caffeine wore off or something. only one putting in any kind of effort was the guy playing Kaydick,and he's just way too over the top crazy. I mean, the little girl is getting hurt and electrocuted,and she just lays there with this calm expresion on her face and yells! at least writhe and crawl around or something! ----------------------------------- SgtParks Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:53 pm ----------------------------------- I liked the stories and the Media Net segments (P.I.S program and 1-888 F-U-OCP, LOL) but apart from that it was pretty awful. ----------------------------------- ElectricSoul Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:36 pm ----------------------------------- LOL I did get a kick out of when Damian took over,and he changed MediaNet to the new,bubbly version with better looking anchors! ----------------------------------- SgtParks Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:49 pm ----------------------------------- Yeah, I never saw Damian as a particularly bad character like Sara Cable but more of a naive idiot ----------------------------------- razgriz21 Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:03 pm ----------------------------------- Cheaply made, overly silly, cheesy looking, and terrible editing. Oh, and that HORRIBLE music. ----------------------------------- EXbob Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:39 am ----------------------------------- I personally fucking loved this series. I mean it's awful, but so damn funny and there's some genuinely good stuff in there with some of the ads. Far more watchable than The Series. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:48 pm ----------------------------------- Damn, and I was just starting to like you. :b So you 'fucking loved' this but didn't care so much for the remakeboot? And this because of the commercials/MediaNet segments (what about the other 90% or so of the thing)? This was 'far more watchable' than the Series when this thing has an awkward dwarf for RoboCop, horrendous writing/editing/production/directing/plot/acting/etc/etc? What warped RoboCop rankings do you have? ----------------------------------- EXbob Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:49 pm ----------------------------------- Damn, and I was just starting to like you. :b So you 'fucking loved' this but didn't care so much for the remakeboot? And this because of the commercials/MediaNet segments (what about the other 90% or so of the thing)? This was 'far more watchable' than the Series when this thing has an awkward dwarf for RoboCop, horrendous writing/editing/production/directing/plot/acting/etc/etc? What warped RoboCop rankings do you have? Oh don't get me wrong, Prime Directives is bloody awful. It just got to the point where what I was watching was so ridiculous I couldn't help but enjoy myself! I have a little soft spot for this one because the people behind it were really going for something neat, they just had no clue how to do it. The people behind the reboot played things a little to safe in my opinion. The reboot only had a few moments where I really felt anything, those being the confrontation scene with Dean and the build up to the ending. I still like the reboot, I just got more entertainment out of watching midget cheap Robocop running around awkwardly while relentlessly firing at black Robocop. Prime Directives was far, far worse, I just found it more enjoyable. Hell I still bought the reboot on bluray, it was a good effort at using the licence in a fairly new way. ----------------------------------- ireactions Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:29 pm ----------------------------------- I like PRIME DIRECTIVES. I liked it in 2001. I like it now. That said, I do understand why the majority of the fans here don't and I don't dispute their reasons. We all enjoy things differently, and the things I would want from a ROBOCOP series and the things PRIME DIRECTIVES tried to do and could do are not the things the fans here wanted. But I don't think that means that the creators are bad people who didn't care about RoboCop or the fans. One of the writers, Joseph O'Brien, is a personal friend of mine. I interacted with Julian Grant once in 2000 and had the opportunity to see him answer a lot of questions as well as some of mine. I met writer Brad Abraham on multiple occasions. These creators all expressed great respect and appreciation for RoboCop, noting that the character was so special in the original film thanks to: Peter Weller's performance Ed Neumeier and Michael Miner's script Paul Verhoeven's direction Rob Bottin's design Moni Yakim's mime-work training Superb production values The issues fans primarily cite as their distaste for PD include: Richard Eden was not rehired despite having proven himself in an otherwise poor TV series; Page Fletcher's RoboCop movements do not measure up to the detailed, emotive movements seen in the three films; Moni Yakim, the mime-artist who designed the RoboCop movements and directed the actors in the films, was not hired for Prime Directives; Richard Eden should have played Alex Murphy; The helmetless makeup looks terrible; RoboCop spends every fight scene getting beaten up; The action sequences feature more flashbang effects and slow-motion than choreographed action; The series is set either in the halls of OCP or abandoned warehouse upon abandoned warehouse, making it look cheap; The effects are poor; The writing is bad. When watching PD in 2001 -- I think I simply accepted that an eight-million dollar series of four movies shot in three months wasn't going to be STAR WARS. It was going to be a TV show: TV level effects, TV sets, TV makeup, TV props. Also, the series was produced by Fireworks Entertainment: they did low-budget syndicated TV shows like MUTANT X and ANDROMEDA. These were all shows that depended on using sets as much as possible, using slow-motion action to keep costs manageable, using low-budget effects and makeup, and also hiring models rather than actors. PRIME DIRECTIVES is, in the end, a version of RoboCop made for this syndicated sci-fi market of low-budget productions. So, when I watch PD, I accept all these things. Where fans here see Page Fletcher stumbling around in a heavy suit, I see an outdated and unmaintained cyborg whose mental stability and sanity have slowly crumbled after 10 years of living as a man trapped in a machine. Where fans here feel trapped in the OCP sets, I see the writers cleverly confining all the OCP characters to OCP's halls in order to show how this corporation has infected every level of civilization in Delta City and how their money-hungry, humanity-corrupting ways now control everything. Note that the few OCP characters who step out of their environs -- James Murphy and Hobley -- end up experiencing a complete 180 of intention and attitude, going from cogs in a corporate machine to rebels against the establishment. The final installment of PD, which some have jokingly called the epic stairwell battle, I see as the heroes charging into this implacable, inhuman infrastructure and blowing up the walls. The abandoned warehouse sets aren't inspiring, but I feel that PD deliberately puts the focus on the characters and adds a strong human element to the action sequences. Why is James Murphy so willing to hunt down his own father? Will Murphy kill Cable to save the world? Are people like Damian Lowe and Sara Cable worth saving? How can Murphy stop Kaydick when the formidable Ann R. Key can't even hold her own against him? Will Hobley get his act together and stand up to Damian Lowe? The fights in PRIME DIRECTIVES aren't masterpieces, but the human factor is so strong that I find myself enjoying it. As for Murphy's height throughout PD -- I think it's unfortunate that the one shot in "Dark Justice" shows that James is taller than Alex. But I don't feel any other shot incorrectly emphasizes RoboCop's lack of stature; all the shots where RoboCable towers over RoboCop are deliberately making Cable terrifying. There are two areas where I think fans are pretty reasonable in expressing their distaste. for Murphy losing every single fight scene -- that's part of showing how the world has passed RoboCop by -- he doesn't win fights anymore, he just survives them and keeps moving forward. The music that is so mocked by the fans; PRIME DIRECTIVES was made with the TV license. They had no access to ED-209 or the Basil Poledouris music. Faced with the choice of making an imitation or doing their own thing, they did their own thing and decided to play up RoboCop as a Western with Murphy as an aged gunslinger and used the style of Italian western films. As a fan -- I disagree with the approach to Murphy's fighting prowess and I think the music was a mistake. When you're making something that has a fanbase, fan expectations in these areas should be considered when they are achievable and the creators certainly could have let Murphy win a few rounds and done what the TV series did in creating a reasonable Poledouris-alternative. But that doesn't mean that the creators were wrong. It just means that they chose A where I would have preferred B. It's a matter of personal taste, just as my view of Page Fletcher's RoboSuit work is what I see through my eyes and not what you guys see through yours. From a behind the scenes perspective -- I really think that there was good intention and ambition behind their choices. Sometimes, there were production problems. Because PD was filmed on a three-month schedule for eight million, mime artist Moni Yakim could not be hired and even if they could have hired him, they would not have had four months to train Fletcher in the movements. Because of the three-month schedule, there was no way they could let Fletcher spend eight hours in makeup for the helmetless scenes, so it doesn't look good. The low budget also meant that action sequences and locations would never match the scale or detail of the 1987 film. There were also issues caused by the rushed shooting schedule. Mistakes were made during the course of filming a 90-minute action movie every 22.5 days. The scene where RoboCop looks shorter than James Murphy is unfortunate. Then there's the mis-placed chinguard in the graveyard scene of "Meltdown" and the bland car chase, "Resurrection" having incomplete effects for Murphy's chinguard, "Crash and Burn" having Ann kill security guards after Murphy ordered her not to. Errors like these happen in every film production and hurrying to get material filmed can mean these problems don't register until after the material is filmed and reviewed. Larger-budgeted productions will do reshoots; PRIME DIRECTIVES couldn't afford to do that. The creators are often accused of not noticing or caring about certain issues; the truth is that they often noticed them but had to accept them. Richard Eden was approached to reprise his role as RoboCop. The creators met with him and it didn't work out. It wasn't that the creators didn't like Eden or didn't respect his talent or didn't want him -- they just couldn't reach an agreement to secure his services. If they could have, they would have, just as they would have hired Yakim or used the Basil Poledouris music had it been possible to do so. So, watching PD -- I accept that it's a TV show on a TV scale and I find myself enjoying it. I think the writing for PD is very strong. I love the terrible sense that RoboCop is a slave of OCP, reprogrammed to kill his best friend. I love the machinelike coldness that Fletcher infuses into the role after killing Cable as RoboCop becomes violent and brutal towards the tech thieves. I love Fletcher's horror as he recognizes RoboCable and their battle in the wreckage of the police station. I really like the whole arc where Murphy's humanity is restored to him through triggering a shut-down section of his brain and Fletcher plays RoboCop with humour and wisecracks and conversational banter. The scene where James Murphy confronts his father in the church is, to me, the high point of the ROBOCOP franchise. I find the final movie really tense and gripping: how are they going to stop SAINT when Kaydick is in control of Cable? How can the heroes convince Damian and Sara to help them? What are they going to do when Kaydick gets control of SAINT to unleash LEGION and when the EMP device is locked in the SAINT chamber and what if Murphy has to die in the EMP burst? Even if our heroes beat SAINT, they'll have to do so by killing RoboCop. How can this possibly work out? The fact that it's set in a stairwell is just background detail to me. And it's part of the budget-conscious approach to the writing: they can't emphasize the setpieces, so they emphasize the character-situations. I'm not blind to PD's faults -- I just enjoy it enough to overlook the faults. For most fans here, they have the opposite reaction. I'd argue that the creators were not uncaring or incompetent. In some cases, they simply made different choices than the ones you or I might make because they are different people. In other cases, their choices were constrained by the budget, licensing, schedule, and the fact that Fireworks Entertainment really just wanted something to sell overseas before their TV license expired. I will say that PD has not aged well, mainly because the cost of special effects and digital cameras has decreased significantly in the last 15 years. Digital cameras mean that more setups and scenes and pages can be shot each day with the ability to spend more time prepping. Digital makeup has made huge leaps forward. Rendering can add more detail and texture to effects on a TV budget now than was possible in 2000. Television has started to reach a cinematic level of scale and setpieces whereas PRIME DIRECTIVES reflects all the limitations of TV productions in the 2000s. Eight million and 90 days would go a lot farther today. I enjoy PRIME DIRECTIVES as RoboCop for TV in the 2000s. None of this is meant to say you guys are wrong for disliking PRIME DIRECTIVES, of course. We all see ROBOCOP differently, we all want different things from the franchise and my perspective is *clearly* out of step with the majority of this message board. Back in 2001, I got in a lot of arguments with people on the older version of this board and I really regret that. There's nothing wrong with different people reacting differently to a piece of art. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:14 am ----------------------------------- Well, I think I know who you are, from the history discussed on this forum (I also remember you vaguely personally when I first joined up ages ago). If so, welcome back. With that, before I go any further, I will preface this by saying that if you like Prime Directives, fine. You are indeed free to like it as much as you please. That said, this is without a doubt one of the biggest loads of slightly condescending, absurdly rationalizing, painfully apologist crap I've ever seen, and, given my Civil War knowledge, trust me, that's saying something. A fair portion of your post essentially says 'it's all subjective', and the rest is filled with ridiculous excuses. As this topic has exhaustively detailed why Prime Directives is the load of dreck it is, I won't bother going over all your inane 'points', but I will make a few notes. And yes, you can take them however you want. I don't expect to change your mind, but damn I won't let that 'post' stand totally unchallenged. First off, it being a TV show DOES NOT automatically mean it gets a pass or gets a lower scale of judgment on quality compared to films, or any other form of media, for that matter. Not to me. That is definitely one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Yeah it's a different format with different restrictions, parameters, and so on, but ultimately, the end result is the same as feature films or any other media, providing a good experience for the viewer. Regardless that reasoning doesn't save PD since it failed even as 'just' a 'TV show'. So basically, I don't see what saying that serves at all. Its my understanding that back in 2000 there was an immense amount of hype catered directly to this community over this. If so, that grossly embellished and misleading promotion and expectation management was not on us, just like the piss-poor expectation management and promotion of the reboot was not on us. When those expectations were left woefully unfulfilled, hardly surprising many reacted poorly. But that poor reaction had to come from somewhere. And that somewhere is that they blew it. THEY. I repeat that for emphasis because it's not our fault they didn't have enough money, enough time, enough where-with-all and so on and so forth. When it comes to media, they're catering to us, not the other way around; if they think they're doing anything else, they're failing by default, frankly. Otherwise, if they can't get all their ducks in a row and deliver something that makes the viewer look past the problems and still enjoy it, not on said viewer to cut them a break. Some of us have given credit to those behind this project for their attempt, to varying degrees, but 'attempt' doesn't matter, it's what they actually DO - Ultimately, it doesn't matter who they are, what they intended or what they had to work with - We judge by what is on the goddamned screen. If that doesn't make it, tough shit. Again, you can like or even love this damn thing as much as you want. Many of us enjoy things considered shitty by overwhelming majorities. That doesn't mean it wasn't still a poorly done project and it sure as shit doesn't mean it's beyond criticism. Shit, there's criticisms about the original film which we all pretty much regard as perfect. The difference, again, is that it's good enough to be enjoyable beyond and/or in spite of those criticisms (of which are very few in the first place, at least I've seen very very few, anyway). Prime Directives is not, at least not for those who don't care to look past them. And the overwhelming majority of us do not. In conclusion, I quote this - from right here in this very topic - And while this statement as it stands applies to RoboCop, it really applies everywhere in entertainment. Hell you could even put 'TV show' instead of 'robo' and it still applies. Without further ado - Just because it has robo in it doesn't mean we have to swallow it up and go for dessert. We CAN demand some kind of quality. ----------------------------------- ireactions Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:22 am ----------------------------------- I'm sorry you didn't like my post. I have to say that most of my opinions about ROBOCOP are in the minority and not shared by most fans here. For example, I dislike DARK JUSTICE which is probably the least loathed installment of PD and I really like all the Frank Miller ROBOCOP comics -- and in recent years, I've come to enjoy THE SERIES as an alternate vision of ROBOCOP. I'm a weird guy with weird tastes and I apologize for any irritation my eccentricities cause you. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:34 am ----------------------------------- It's fine. It's also been said we don't have to absolutely despise anyone who likes Prime Directives. And I don't. Like I said, you can like Prime Directives all you want, that's fine. I take no issue with that. I do take issue with any attempt to defend Prime Directives as a worthwhile piece of media. We've heard most if not all of that shit before and to this day none of it works or stands up - None of it justifies, explains, or dismisses all the immense and even fundamental flaws in this thing. Furthermore, it's rather pointless and just plain annoying to even broach by this stage. That's pretty much it. Not like I personally hate your guts or anything. Then again, it is only Monday though.. :b ----------------------------------- ireactions Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:09 pm ----------------------------------- I just thought it'd be fun to engage with some fellow RoboFans again because I've been re-reading all the comics. My personal experience of PD wasn't meant to argue that yours was wrong; it's just what I saw through my eyes. But it seems that all I did was stir up a lot of bad feelings and severely misread the room here. I don't want to irritate your community, so I'll back off except to offer a behind the scenes piece of info that I've sat on for quite a few years. Richard Eden was approached to reprise his role in PRIME DIRECTIVES, but negotiations didn't work out. This was largely because Eden had a *terrible* experience on THE SERIES. Eden really cared about the role. He studied the movies in great detail before auditioning and while playing the role, trying to capture the RoboMovements. But the production treated him badly. Eden was made to share a trailer with the guest-stars. The lead actor of the series was not given personal space to prepare and think. Eden was bolted into the suit for hours on end and ignored whenever he needed assistance between shots in moving, getting comfortable or needing to go to the washroom. Eden was injured on several occasions in filming the series and no corrective measures were taken. This, on top of long shooting hours, made for a very embarrassing and humiliating experience. When Eden was approached to reprise his role for PD, he did not want to repeat the experience that he had on THE SERIES. The PRIME DIRECTIVES team knew of how horribly he'd been treated and assured him that he would have his own trailer, that he'd have a handler help him with safety and comfort issues, that they'd film as much as possible with only the top half of the suit, that the lower half would snap off independently, that they liked his work and wanted him back. But the three month schedule for four movies meant the physical demands would be even tougher than THE SERIES with longer hours and days. Eden wanted an easier experience both in terms of respectful treatment and physical demands; production could offer the first but not the second and they couldn't come to an agreement on those terms. I don't blame Eden for wanting very different terms from THE SERIES in order to return to the role; I don't blame the PD creators for only being able to offer him half of what he wanted to come back to the character. But it's really too bad. I read this whole thread, and Eden's gift for acting in the suit would have clearly been appreciated by the fans here. Alright. I was going to post some stuff in the comics forum about why I like the Frank Miller comics, but I don't want to piss people off, so I think that's it for me. Maybe I'll start a blog! ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:25 pm ----------------------------------- While I think many would side with me here, that's not certain, and in any event don't take my view as being absolute. That said, whatever your personal views, behind the scenes info is always good to hear, good, bad, or indifferent. Nice bit of info regarding Eden, good to have some insight there. And finally, just because your take on PD wasn't well-received by me, doesn't mean you should shut up totally. I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on other stuff, even if I don't care for them as much - Though it never comes across well with me, I don't mind hearing other takes, even ones I think are shit, especially if they have some effort behind them as yours do. So I would hope you reconsider posting generally. Hell I wouldn't mind hearing your take on the Series, as you seem to have a fair bit of knowledge at-hand about Eden and the show, and I myself do like the Series a fair bit. Again, thanks for the read up on Eden and his circumstances regarding PD and to an extent the Series - I think it would be a good segue into you posting about the Series (though not in this particular thread, of course). Not to say you should only post there - if you got views on the comics, or anything else, bring 'em out. You may get well-received or not, like I said, we all post what we think and not all of it jives with everyone. Don't be worried about what assholes may think, least of all this particular asshole. ;) ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:49 pm ----------------------------------- Quite a big read! While I also liked PD (I was still growing up and I remember my first internet searchs about RoboCop, and the PD website came with those fine stills in the rain and cool poses and blood) and I see that you want to show the good things about it, I find the message a little bit possitive. That said, don´t have any problems with people involved on that production. I reached Grant, O´Brien and Abraham at some point and seemed nice people. Even get Abraham to talk about Robo on a RoboCop special that later became a PD interview (looks like it was difficult to find a reply from the people behind the trilogy) and worked on some comic stuff later together. These creators all expressed great respect and appreciation for RoboCop Yes. But even the hardcore fan would have trouble if he´d have a tiny budget and little time to develop the series. As for Murphy's height throughout PD -- I think it's unfortunate that the one shot in "Dark Justice" shows that James is taller than Alex. But I don't feel any other shot incorrectly emphasizes RoboCop's lack of stature; all the shots where RoboCable towers over RoboCop are deliberately making Cable terrifying. I can buy the Cable being taller, but there are more situations that shows Robo being smaller than the rest of the cast (I remember an elevator scene on "Crash & Burn"). I think they could do some tricks to avoid that (even in bigger productions and with taller people they use a box or whatever to make that person look bigger. It could be difficult to hide the lack of height on wide shots, but no problem to use that on close-ups). There are two areas where I think fans are pretty reasonable in expressing their distaste. for Murphy losing every single fight scene -- that's part of showing how the world has passed RoboCop by -- he doesn't win fights anymore, he just survives them and keeps moving forward. The music that is so mocked by the fans. I see that they went with Robo as an "old tool", but after all, giving him a winning situation would be cool. Also, while they focus on the human side of RoboCop, he looks like a secondary character, giving all the stuff to Cable. As for de music, I wouldn´t have any problem with a different taste, but I think the trumpet solos are hard to taste. I do like some of the background music in the series, but it usually doesn´t involve trumpets or heavy metal stuff. And yes, sadly it sounds like TV score, without "real" and "organic" sounds. I really think that there was good intention and ambition behind their choices. Yeah, no doubt on that. I doubt anyone who does a movie wants to do it just to mess with the fans. :b PD was filmed on a three-month schedule for eight million. That´s the big problem with the production. On the interview I did with Brad, I asked him what he´d like to change on PD after all those years. He asked "having more money and time for develop it". I can see some of the weird situations in the series would came due to time and money. I had the chance to take a look to the original idea and it was more complex and would require more bucks to get it made, so I see that they had to go back and rewrite a lot of stuff. Also, the studio was "giving advice", something that happens a lot. From hiring Playmates to changing the Robo-plot in "Ressurection": the original script have him on limbo for most of the chapter, getting "dreams" of his humanity while there was a fight between Robohunters and a bigger gangs of techno-thieves; Fireworks didn´t liked having him "disconnected" for so long. Also, while I admire what they tried, Grant should know they didn´t have too much money to spend, and they should go for a more "grounded" story, less sci-fi, and, as some people pointed before, split the series on two episodes instead of four. That would give them more time to write the right thing and time to solve problems while filming. PD looked rushed because it was a rushed production. Because of the three-month schedule, there was no way they could let Fletcher spend eight hours in makeup for the helmetless scenes, so it doesn't look good. I´m not a film expert, just a "nerd", but I think they could do it better. While I can understand about the makeup process, they could came with a better "Roboskull". After all, it was just a fiberglass part, so they could added similar details like the films, and go for a faster makeup for it. The back of Robo´s head had a simple sculpt, and while I can see they choose to go with the back of the helmet details, they didn´t do anything to add details at other parts, like the ears and chin. Also, if they didn´t have time to do a full makeup process, I´d try to film the more helmetless Robo scenes at the same time, to get it done and avoid getting Fletcher on makeup more days. There were also issues caused by the rushed shooting schedule. Mistakes were made during the course of filming a 90-minute action movie every 22.5 days. The scene where RoboCop looks shorter than James Murphy is unfortunate. Then there's the mis-placed chinguard in the graveyard scene of "Meltdown" and the bland car chase, "Resurrection" having incomplete effects for Murphy's chinguard, "Crash and Burn" having Ann kill security guards after Murphy ordered her not to. That´s what I said about the rushed production. That particular scene in "Crash & Burn" makes no sense. Also, the editing wasn´t very good. For example, the Robo entrance in "Meltdown" uses slomo and 100 takes of the same crash. I did some tests with that scene and it´d work better on a different way. I´d love to have a "redux" version of PD. I tried, but it seems the 5.1 audio was mixed on a way you couldn´t get the dialog without fx and music. I even reached Grant to ask him if he has some temp files of the flicks to play with them, but no luck. I think with a better editing, different FXs and music, it´d improve the whole thing. Cut the long chats, the no-sense fights, get a better pacing and I think it´d feel different. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:01 am ----------------------------------- Without going super into it (again), it has been said before that time and especially budget isn't that big an issue if you're not half-assing it and going about the project with absolute willingness and smarts. You either go big or go home. You can blame your schedule and budget but frankly that only goes so far. The visual issues with Flecther's height - one poor point in a piece of media full of them - That could have been re-done a number of ways that would've solved or dodged that issue with little extra fuss (as Chanood has stated) and would have made the whole thing that much better. That it wasn't mostly speaks for itself as far as I'm concerned. If you give it your all it will show in the final product. If you don't, that will also show. While I truly do understand working with what you've got, you still need to give the absolute best effort you can in spite of the restrictions.. and I just don't feel that is the case in terms of the final product that is Prime Directives. ----------------------------------- Mindchamber Fri May 01, 2015 2:15 pm ----------------------------------- The fact that "the writing was bad" is on the bottom of your list makes is something that gets me everytime when people discuss a movie and its shortcomings. Youre not the only one.. But writing while is easily the least costly of creating a movie, is the most creatively taxing.. Its also the most important. Prime Directives caught my interest in Dark Justice because it was at least attempting to create a logical back story to Robocop ... everything just fell apart after that. you can do amazing things with a lower budget.. ( go watch Ex Machina) Prime Directives was terribly written,.. no amount of budget , actors and effects could mask that ----------------------------------- Archive Fri May 01, 2015 3:34 pm ----------------------------------- I probably see PD as being better than it is just because, I was close to the people making it and got a lot of insight into the production. As such I can understand how it turned out the way it did and in some ways see it as a "fan" movie. Other people won't do that. They don't care how or why things turned out this way they just see it front and center on the screen. An example is if I only had a 50 dollar budget to make a RoboCop movie. It would be absolute garbage and no matter how much I explained WHY the movie turned out the way it did it's still garbage. It is what's on the screen that will matter to people. It is what you do with the tools you have. I understand why the helmetless make-up looks like shit, but it still looks like shit, so it is shit. :) So MY biggest problem is that PD has many, many, many minor flaws that when combined seriously weaken the overall product. The good ideas and intentions are definitely there but that doesn't stop the actual result being what it is. I feel the writing can be a bit goofy here and there but I don't think that is the main problem (I'm sure PD would be a great comic book.) The problem is in the execution and the director ignoring minor problems that to robofans are HUGE problems. Their failure to see that a short RoboCop without the robo moves would be a problem is incompetent and the way NO BODY in the production saw this as a problem or tried to fix it is mind blowing. Page Fletcher hadn't seen RoboCop beforehand apparently so its not his fault as such (although it would have been a good idea to study the character you are playing) but how about someone just showing him some classic Weller moves on the lunchbreak for 10+ minutes? Anyone could have done that. It's strange decisions like this and many others that makes PD into a lesser product. It is my understanding that most robofans think "Dark Justice" is the BETTER of the four. Me included. For me it is mainly because here Robo is still Robo and a cop. With episode 2 it just goes all over board with robo in a blanket, kids, strange over the top sci fi and Robocable hi-jacking the whole story, oh and yes, the epic finale taking place in building stairway... :) http://www.robocoparchive.com/pd/roboshorty1.jpg Classic spoof by Mindchamber. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri May 01, 2015 4:06 pm ----------------------------------- you can do amazing things with a lower budget.. ( go watch Ex Machina) One of the few movies I was interested in. They didn´t showed in theaters here. :b Anyway, I still think time really could hurt everything. You could find that on comics, where you can see samples on the net of a new artist, and then reading a comic with a "meh" art, without knowing that the hot art you saw was made by the same dude of this comic. As for money, I read that budget shouldn´t be a problem. Yeah, but you should adapt the story you have to that budget, or everything would look cheap. I think time + budget shows in PD. Those fake, videogame explosions at some points, for example. I think they choose a FX company which could do it quick and wouldn´t cost a fortune. And you see the results. I think the shooting was a litle chaos, with improvised moments as well. I´m not sure if they had everything planned as they wanted. I feel the writing can be a bit goofy here and there but I don't think that is the main problem (I'm sure PD would be a great comic book.) I agree with that. I asked them why they didn´t try to sell the original scripts to BOOM!, as those publishers keep working on the "original spirit" of the movies. And on paper, you don´t need a big budget to create explosions, big shootouts and RoboCops showing their internal parts and getting really broken. But well, don´t know how the industry works, so I doubt they could have the rights over Fireworks to do that. It is my understanding that most robofans think "Dark Justice" is the BETTER of the four. Me included. For me it is mainly because here Robo is still Robo and a cop. With episode 2 it just goes all over board with robo in a blanket, kids, strange over the top sci fi and Robocable hi-jacking the whole story, oh and yes, the epic finale taking place in building stairway... :) Yeah, it looks like they have more "control" over the miniseries. It didn´t have too much action, and have a lot of character exposition, but as you say, it feels RoboCop, he´s the main character in this one, and the story is solid. As the series go on, it looks like they had to rush everything and make an end for this. I could see the writers redoing the last chapters. In the first drafts of "Resurrection", Kaydick is more a "good guy" than an evil, mad scientist (and, spoilers, he dies there). And on the "Crash & Burn" one, he´s back, and his character is different. So I think they keep going and changing things over and over, even when they were filming it. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Fri May 01, 2015 5:12 pm ----------------------------------- The fact that "the writing was bad" is on the bottom of your list makes is something that gets me everytime when people discuss a movie and its shortcomings. Youre not the only one.. But writing while is easily the least costly of creating a movie, is the most creatively taxing.. Its also the most important. Prime Directives was terribly written,.. no amount of budget , actors and effects could mask that Seriously Budget is a NON issue, absolutely ridiculous anyone could use that as kind of excuse to a bad film, its simply ludicrous. When making a move you're story has to be powerful, directing percise and excution flawless, and you can direct that movie with a tyco tapedeck handycam. You can not work the other way around and expect a larger budget or more effects to band aid what was a shallow story and horrible acting. Case in point The new starWars Trilogy. Robocop PD was fail, plain and simple and neither the director nor its writers understood the complexity of the character, though I give them credit for trying. Felt I should quote these, since these are both relevant and astute observations. I agree with the others about Dark Justice - That actually was something that wasn't a mess, and had something to it. The rest were mostly a big waste. All-told, MC said it, the basic product itself fails - Aside from Dark Justice, the overall story was shit. Add to that a budget and schedule that were both lacking, a myriad of other problems, both large and small (but especially small, as Archive noted), and direction and acting that don't even seem to really even attempt to compensate for any of that, well, you get what you get. Sad thing is, like MC, I have to give the writers some credit - There is a feeling they wanted to do something great with Robo, and I won't discount that; they did make some kind of attempt there. But again, overall, the project as whole didn't cut it, so there it is. And no matter what the writers wanted, those in charge only saw this thing from the start as being little more than a quick and dirty last-minute cash-grab. In retrospect, the production had 'clusterfuck' written on it from day one. Sadly, nothing much changed all the way to it making it on the screen. The comic book idea is good, I think this might lend itself to that format much better. Bah, all-told, we're just going in circles again, we've all gone over this shit before. As for the guy who precipitated all this, seems I've scared him off. I didn't mean to and hope that ain't the case, but if so, oh well. What can I say? The truth hurts. Bah. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri May 01, 2015 5:21 pm ----------------------------------- Bah, all-told, we're just going in circles again. We have to keep talking about anything until the next RebootCop come out :b ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Fri May 01, 2015 5:24 pm ----------------------------------- I suppose.. :) Would be nice if that dude stuck around - I wouldn't have minded seeing how sickeningly positive was about the Series or the Miller comics. I would probably have cut him a bit of a break on discussing the Series, TBH. Prime Directives gets no breaks, though. As said, it's the gold standard of bad RoboCop. Face it - I'm not wrong, I'm just an asshole! ----------------------------------- Archive Sat May 02, 2015 10:01 pm ----------------------------------- Curiously enough I just noticed Page Fletcher haven't done any acting since 2002. Robo: PD was released in 2001 then he is credited for ONE more acting job in 2002. After that.... nothing. I tried to find out if the actual filming for his gig in 2002 was filmed BEFORE Robo:PD, but I couldn't find any info on it. Wouldn't it be kinda interesting if Robo:PD got Fletcher to quit the business. Probably not true, but still. ----------------------------------- Zentron Sat May 02, 2015 11:01 pm ----------------------------------- It could be the RoboCop curse, the one that kills off any actor or director associated with the shit that came after the first film! ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sat May 02, 2015 11:20 pm ----------------------------------- Curiously enough I just noticed Page Fletcher haven't done any acting since 2002. Robo: PD was released in 2001 then he is credited for ONE more acting job in 2002. After that.... nothing. I tried to find out if the actual filming for his gig in 2002 was filmed BEFORE Robo:PD, but I couldn't find any info on it. Wouldn't it be kinda interesting if Robo:PD got Fletcher to quit the business. Probably not true, but still. I did some searching stuff time ago and I think I saw somewhere that he quit making movies or TV, but he was doing stage plays. I could be wrong, but I remember something like that. Anyway, some of the actors from the miniseries don´t look too busy doing things either. ----------------------------------- RoboJOF Tue May 19, 2015 2:15 am ----------------------------------- I honestly thought that Prime Directives was going in a good direction, but it just didn't measure up. We need to try not to compare it to the previous films and view it for what it is. Pros: Another installment to the series (although it does not recognize R2 or R3). Good action (with some Robocop-esque gratuitous gore). Some compelling themes (Robocop is obsolete, Delta City is safe and OCP succeeded) Murphy backstory with some additional characters The first Robocop to have a successful (and not suicidal or drug addicted) cyborg other than Robocop Actors were good (tried to utilize lesser known actors probably to save money) Cons Story has a lot of elements and they become heavy-handed in the resolve (First two movies were easier to follow, but the last two were really pedantic). Music/score was dull. Dialogue was really silly at times (What are you prepared to do?) Way too much slow motion camera and cgi effects (made it seem cheap). I would rank the series with a strong 5/10. ----------------------------------- NOF Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:06 pm ----------------------------------- I seem to recall there was an extensive Q and A with the scriptwriters before the thing was released. It was quite insightful and articulate. Is there anyway another Q and A could be done for the site, but this time asking what went wrong? ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:29 am ----------------------------------- Is there anyway another Q and A could be done for the site, but this time asking what went wrong? At the time of that original Q&A the creators frequented the site and were readily available for such stuff. But I think the writers would be difficult to contact at all after all this time. Even if you were to get ahold of them I doubt they'd be inclined to commit to such thing - Let's put it this way: Say you did something that in itself was very much a clusterfuck, but ultimately was overwhelmingly badly received by its target fanbase and ended up being a near death-knell to an established franchise - Would you be willing to go back after a decade and half to a community that even on its best day still mostly won't care for your input just to go over piece-by-piece how you/others/things/etc fucked up? I wouldn't. AFAIK, those behind PD booked as soon as they were able, before they could even get any real heat directly on them by this community, and I think things will remain that way. And honestly, that's probably for the better. We've had immense dissection and analysis of the show and especially all the faults and flaws of the production already, I doubt we'd learn anything new and instead would just get a bunch of excuses and 'I wish's. ----------------------------------- Archive Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:45 am ----------------------------------- I seem to recall there was an extensive Q and A with the scriptwriters before the thing was released. It was quite insightful and articulate. Yup, its still on the site. Would you be willing to go back after a decade and half to a community that even on its best day still mostly won't care for your input just to go over piece-by-piece how you/others/things/etc fucked up? I wouldn't. With these days of facebook, twitter etc, its a lot easier to get a hold of creators but as Stan said, they are not likely to be in a place where they would want to take part in a Q and A where the main focus is how much they and their work suck. I still maintain however that the writing wasn't PD's main problem. While people like Fred Dekker nowadays can look back at their work objectivity and see the good and the bad, PD director Julian Grant apparently still (according to his facebook page) judge Robo:PD as some of his best work. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:06 pm ----------------------------------- PD director Julian Grant apparently still (according to his facebook page) judge Robo:PD as some of his best work. Well, if he likes the character, I could understand why he says that. If not, I could understand it too :b I mean, Robo is a pretty well known character, and his previous work were less known B-movies. As for a "what they think about it right now", I think I could share the interview I did with Brad about PD. I was trying to do a Robo-special, but didn´t have any luck getting in touch with people from the movies. While the PD interview talks about some aspects from the miniseries (from the "bright Robo" to the "10 year old, bruised one"), I asked him what he´d like to change or upgrade from the experience. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:26 pm ----------------------------------- What animosity I have towards those behind this damn thing, admittedly less of it is directed towards the writers - From everything I've read and seen they seemed most sincere about wanting to make something worthwhile despite all the difficulties. It wasn't quite enough though - I still believe, as many do, that they didn't truly and fully understand the depth and complexities of RoboCop and his universe, but they made an attempt and I do give 'em credit for that. And all-told, whatever issue(s) you take with the writing, it can't be denied that even at worst it's just one failure in a pile of 'em with this thing. If they're willing I'll certainly hear 'em out, but as I said I doubt we'd learn anything new or otherwise glean any real different understanding about the whole thing. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:22 pm ----------------------------------- What animosity I have towards those behind this damn thing, admittedly less of it is directed towards the writers - From everything I've read and seen they seemed most sincere about wanting to make something worthwhile despite all the difficulties. It wasn't quite enough though - I still believe, as many do, that they didn't truly and fully understand the depth and complexities of RoboCop and his universe, but they made an attempt and I do give 'em credit for that. And all-told, whatever issue(s) you take with the writing, it can't be denied that even at worst it's just one failure in a pile of 'em with this thing. If they're willing I'll certainly hear 'em out, but as I said I doubt we'd learn anything new or otherwise glean any real different understanding about the whole thing. I think the whole RoboCop story is tricky to follow. After the first movie, what could you do? Trying to make Robo more over the top, but without the same sense of humour (R2), a emotionless cyborg (R3), follow so close the formula or trying to add something new on the mix (PD)? I´m not a big fan of all the new technology themes on the miniseries, but I think it works in the context. Robo 2 & 3 follows the same theme: let´s put Murphy on a fight with a bigger, badass "robot". I like the fact the more reasonable way to make a "RoboCop 2" model would be based on the original design. Everybody can like or dislike a story, but if the aspect and sound of the thing doesn´t match the rest, the whole thing looks bad. I´d like to share a "recut scene" I edit from Meltdown, with the classic FX, the Poledouris score and more, if I find it. I think you´d find it less "horrendous" than the same thing with Mariachi themes and these kind of things. That´s why I´d like to edit the whole thing (sadly, without the isolated dialog it´s impossible), because if you trim some things (everyone here loves the stairs scenes in Crash & Burn), add things from the script (funny elevator music, for example), trying to fix some FX and trying to cut crazy editing and 400 shots of the same thing (we´re not living in the 80´s anymore), it could look, at least, decent. Some people did their own Star Wars edits, and they usually looks more watchable than the George Lucas new, "cool" edits, so I think you could improve this with a little bit of work. As for the writers, I can see they´d like to work there. It seems it was one of their first jobs. And they had the chance to work on that franchise. How cool is that? And it´s interesting EVERYONE who gets to work on RoboCop admits they love the character and they´re a fan. That´s the thing that I really don´t believe 100%. They could like the first movie or whatever, but I doubt we found a fan, a RoboNerd like us working on that character yet. That´s why the products we had weren´t great. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:07 am ----------------------------------- I watched the first part of PD again fairly recently with a friend of mine who loves bad TV and movies. I would always talk about it so we checked it out. The new conclusion I came to is the thing that really sucks about is that there isn't enough Robo. Sure, that stuff is bad too but the other storylines and flashback shit and all this other crap surrounding the actual Robocop time is so mundane and boring its painful. Robocop the Series is probably even more ridiculous conceptually than PD for the most part, but a good chunk of every episode is devoted to Robo kicking ass so its better. Even the stuff with Robocable was enjoyable when it came to fruition, but all the blathering exposition is what keeps me from watching the whole series again. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:59 pm ----------------------------------- Robocop the Series is probably even more ridiculous conceptually than PD for the most part, but a good chunk of every episode is devoted to Robo kicking ass so its better. Even the stuff with Robocable was enjoyable when it came to fruition, but all the blathering exposition is what keeps me from watching the whole series again. That´s one of the issues I got with PD: Robo ends being a secondary character on the whole plot. RoboCable ends fighting and doing Robo´s stuff, while Murph gets kicked over and over. Some of those issues could be redone on the edit (got a piece of the Meltdown end fight where I cut stuff, and make it more like a fight. The original edit puts Robo kicking some ass and then the Robohunters shot him over and over). As for the blablabla, I also agree with that, sometimes they cared too much for all the OCP meetings and flashbacks. Some could be trimmed, others cut. I think some people already said it here, but it looks some parts are done to fill the 90 minute mark on the flicks, so the fights could be repetitive, the use of the same action in 4 o 5 different shots and slomo to make it go for that runtime. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:19 pm ----------------------------------- It's been said (and I agree) that the pacing of every episodes is just shit, and seems to have been done deliberately - Repeating lines and ridiculously stretching out scenes to fill runtime. Plus all the cuts in scenes to "intense OCP boardroom action" just droll the whole damn thing. The Series episodes are shorter so they rarely had to shove catchphrases and stuff extraneous dialogue and sequences down our throats. And more importantly, this - Robocop the Series is probably even more ridiculous conceptually than PD for the most part, but a good chunk of every episode is devoted to Robo kicking ass so its better. Even the stuff with Robocable was enjoyable when it came to fruition, but all the blathering exposition is what keeps me from watching the whole series again. This is it right here. The show's titled 'RoboCop', so he should be the main thing. And what does RoboCop do? He kicks ass. Unfortunately neither of those are really true in PD. The original series, goofy and watered down though it may be, does at least generally hold true to actually having Robo in it and following through with Robo dishin' it out on good occasion. ----------------------------------- Edd 209 Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:58 am ----------------------------------- The first PD episode I thought did quite well to set the scene and characters and at least give a spark of hope to what may be awaiting in the other three episodes. But that spark didn't go anywhere. The next three episodes could have been made into one. ----------------------------------- RoboJOF Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:50 pm ----------------------------------- I'm with you Edd! The first Prime Directives movie (I think it was subtitled: Dark Justice) was a good place to start. I liked Bone Machine and John Cable. My biggest gripe was that they tried to force a compassionate Robocop/little innocent girl routine, like in Robocop 3 (which built off his newfound compassion in Robocop 2), and wasted time while Cable was resurrected. Resurrection (part 2 of PD) could certainly have been shortened or omitted (excluding the parts with the band of cyber chicks, that was cool). Part 3 (Meltdown) started to lose me. You have the most powerful robot in Detroit, joined by a similarly powerful clone (with two auto-9s) and all you got to thwart them is a sentient computer? Couldn't we do a bit better than that? I did like the incorporation of Murphy's kid and Cable's wife, although the dialogue was monotonous. Kaydick (spelling?) was a good bad guy, the actor that played his did a fine job at being evil, but he was still just a computer genius. Robocop has more important things to be doing, like bashing creeps! Oh well, it is what it is. I still enjoy it, for some of the little things, and for more adventures of Robo. One thing that I especially liked was the notion that Robocop was becoming obsolete, a similarly interesting caveat to the Terminator series, although they have beaten that dead horse to a pulp with Genisys. ----------------------------------- kinserfan11 Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:18 pm ----------------------------------- I really liked those 4 films and dont forget after part 2 Peter Weller was done so they had to get some one else to play the lead !to me its PD was just as violent and good story like part 1-2 and i still like part 3; and all this i am writing i wanted to write there before it was locked ! ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:03 pm ----------------------------------- they had to get some one else to play the lead ! Yeah.. and it might have helped if they got someone that was not shorter than my fatass and who actually bothered to research the character beyond what his name was. to me its PD was just as violent (like part 1-2) Not.. exactly. and good story like part 1-2 I'm pretty sure it's well agreed even by fans of R2 like myself its story was rather shoddy. That said it's still miles ahead of PD. As for R1, PD can't even begin to lick it's piss off the ground. and i still like part 3 Also miles ahead of PD - this coming from someone who doesn't like it all that much. and all this i am writing i wanted to write there before it was locked ! Probably because we already have a massive topic going over PD right here. Perhaps you should give it a read and then maybe you'll see why your take isn't exactly embraced. Not saying you can't like it but you'll be in a very small minority. Just sayin'. ----------------------------------- kinserfan11 Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:06 pm ----------------------------------- I did read PD there but to me it did not answer any of my questions so i started a new topic ! And Yes i like PD and really dont care if anyone else does because that their opion NOT mine ! ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:18 pm ----------------------------------- If it relates to PD you can just continue this topic since that's what its for. That said, just what questions do you have that we haven't gone over? I mean we've covered quite a lot here and keep in mind the site itself has a PD section with gobs of info on it. ----------------------------------- kinserfan11 Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:51 pm ----------------------------------- Who would have been a better actor and I don’t mean PW ? Also wonder why they added a extra Auto 9 to RoboCable ? ----------------------------------- kinserfan11 Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:40 am ----------------------------------- I have the PD on DVD now and i Have not watched in while and i still enjoy it and still say it is Violent as P 1-2 and dont forget P3 was pg13 and series was aimed at Kids NOT Adults ! ----------------------------------- kinserfan11 Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:48 am PD Violence ----------------------------------- What about the RC kills Cable? Or when he uses his spike to Bone Machine? what about the Robo Hunters using sledge Hammers or when RoboCable uses a sledge Hammer to kill a Robo Hunter? ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:44 pm Re: PD Violence ----------------------------------- What about the RC kills Cable? Or when he uses his spike to Bone Machine? what about the Robo Hunters using sledge Hammers or when RoboCable uses a sledge Hammer to kill a Robo Hunter? I think in general, the problems with Robocop: PD have less to do with Robocop himself and more to do with everything going on around it. A lot of the scenes with Robocop actually doing stuff are good, and his confrontations with Bonemachine and Robocable remain memorable to me. What is utterly forgettable are all the other overdeveloped side characters and subplots that go nowhere. The pacing and plot of PD is utterly bloated. You could get someone else to play Robocop and retool some of his scenes, but if you're using that same script I think it would suck no matter what. Now, something that I think could realistically be done is a fanedit. Cut out out most of the flashbacks and side characters and reel in the focus. There is not enough content for 4 good movies, but maybe enough for one. But even that would mostly be in vein because the whole project was just not built on an exciting premise. Sure, having an actor who disregards all past films to make his own interpretation of Robocop ain't a great start. But would PD really be any better on the whole if the Robowalk was perfect? ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:44 pm Re: PD Violence ----------------------------------- Now, something that I think could realistically be done is a fanedit. Something like this? ;) Older fan edit where it is all cut down to a reasonable 3 hours. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:07 am Re: PD Violence ----------------------------------- Who would have been a better actor and I don’t mean PW ? Again Richard Eden was initially approached and he would have been miles ahead of Fletcher. That said I daresay any remotely decent actor that was taller, bared even a passing resemblance to Weller, and most importantly actually gave two shits would have been a marked improvement as Robo. Hell, Fletcher would have been a lot better himself if he cared to understand even a bit about how important Robo movements are to the character. The height issue could have been handled a myriad of ways. Sad thing is he did fine as Murphy in the flashback parts so it's not like he's a totally shit actor but he outright said he didn't care to examine prior media with Robo but rather wanted to make his own stamp on it - given the character has an established and iconic style of movement to him it just comes off as disrespectful and arrogant. Also wonder why they added a extra Auto 9 to RoboCable ? Well given human Cable uses two guns it seems to be part of his personality so it would make sense to follow through with that for him as RoboCable. As for why two guns period - probably no other reason than cool factor. I have the PD on DVD now and i Have not watched in while and i still enjoy it and still say it is Violent as P 1-2 and dont forget P3 was pg13 and series was aimed at Kids NOT Adults ! R3 was still violent, just not as graphic as the first two. The Series was on network television in the 90s, no program was strikingly violent back then. That said the level of violence isn't strictly a marker of quality - It helps, but even for something called 'RoboCop' it alone doesn't automatically make it good. Case in point R3 and the Series though less violent (the Series very much so) are both overall considered far better than PD for reasons that have nothing to do with the level of violence. Meanwhile R2 is just as violent as R1 and it is still considered quite an inferior film - again even by those that like and enjoy it. That all being said I know there was some good blood and all in PD (I ain't seen it in quite a while) but seriously fact of the matter is it ain't Verhoeven-level graphic. Think or say whatever you like but there it is. I think in general, the problems with Robocop: PD have less to do with Robocop himself and more to do with everything going on around it. A lot of the scenes with Robocop actually doing stuff are good, and his confrontations with Bonemachine and Robocable remain memorable to me. What is utterly forgettable are all the other overdeveloped side characters and subplots that go nowhere. The pacing and plot of PD is utterly bloated. You could get someone else to play Robocop and retool some of his scenes, but if you're using that same script I think it would suck no matter what. ...the whole project was just not built on an exciting premise. Sure, having an actor who disregards all past films to make his own interpretation of Robocop ain't a great start. But would PD really be any better on the whole if the Robowalk was perfect? Pretty much said it for the most part. And so besides a couple throwaway queries that aren't gonna have any deep answer to them it seems we're getting another unsolicited dose of 'PD doesn't suck' that flies in the face of nearly two decades and dozens of posts of reasoned and thorough explanation to the contrary. Bottom line, no one's saying you can't like Prime Directives - by all means enjoy it and don't let me stop you - but bein' real, let's not deny a spade is a spade here. PD is mostly shit. While not every single minute of is utterly horrible, most of it is. It certainly doesn't compare in any way on any level to the original film - or much of the rest of the franchise, for that matter. To even suggest such a point is deluding oneself, end of. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:23 am Re: PD Violence ----------------------------------- it seems we're getting another unsolicited dose of 'PD doesn't suck' that flies in the face of nearly two decades and dozens of posts of reasoned and thorough explanation to the contrary. Destroyed with facts and logic. ----------------------------------- kinserfan11 Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:19 am ----------------------------------- I have the PD Dark Justice on DVD Now and I dont see anything wrong ! ----------------------------------- kinserfan11 Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:48 am ----------------------------------- Wonder why some say PD was NOT Violent? Look how many Robo Hunters were killed off; what about what RC did to Bone Machine? What about RoboCable did to Carver; shot off his arm then beat him to pulp with sledge hammer? Dont forget it was for Canada TV then in USA on SYFY Channel ! ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:03 am ----------------------------------- Wonder why some say PD was NOT Violent? It's not that it wasn't violent, it's that it was A) not as violent as the original, which to be fair no broadcast program ever would have been at that time. And more importantly B) The violence, while a nice element to have return, hardly did anything to make up for the rest of the show's poorness. I said all this earlier. Keep asking the same question you'll keep getting the same answer. I have the PD Dark Justice on DVD Now and I dont see anything wrong ! I will grant Dark Justice is the best of the lot and while I wouldn't say it's flawless it actually is somewhat decent, mainly owing to the flashback scenes which were done well. Though I will say it also helped it had a central - albeit ridiculous - main villain and big fight involving him. But the show as a whole is off a cliff into a hobo-garbing, stair-climbing, OCP-blathering shitpile afterward. Again, as has been said many times already in this thread. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:50 pm ----------------------------------- while I wouldn't say it's flawless it actually is somewhat decent, mainly owing to the flashback scenes which were done well. I have often seen this sentiment expressed, and I can't entirely disagree. It is obviously a higher level of care was put into these flashback scenes than other parts of the show, and this cop drama seems to be what the creators of PD were really interested in making. But I personally hate these scenes as much as anything in PD. The reason is that they add virtually nothing to the plot aside from a few small moments that are unsubtley references later. The bloated pace of PD is one of the worst problems, and the flashbacks are among the worst offenders... especially after having forced myself to sit through PD several times, it is virtually wasted screentime. And unlike the various corporate characters that never had much going for them, there was potential here. Potential, for example, to flesh out Murphy's life before becoming Robocop more. But he is basically a generic cop, which may have been the case for the character, but perhaps that is why the original film was wise to not show too much of Murphy before he became Robocop. The flashback scenes didn't even dig into Robocop's future world and technology at all, which at least the rest of PD attempted. The whole gritty serial killer plotline in the flashback was tonally out of synch with the comic book inspired light sci-fi atmosphere the franchise is famed for. The entire purpose of thee flashback stuff is to develop Cable as a character, but it is of little relevance and the payoff is incredibly weak. Not much of PD is strong, but there are some redeeming qualities and hints of ideas throughout. However, the flashbacks have none of that, and have always been perhaps my very least favorite part of PD as I find they are a total waste of time. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:54 am ----------------------------------- ^ And.. I can't really disagree with much of that, myself. I agree the flashback pieces were ultimately pointless bloat but the thing they had going for them as opposed to almost all the other pointless bloat in this thing is that as you said yourself they actually put some care here and it shows. So while it is bloat it is at least not-painful-to-watch bloat, which cannot be said elsewhere in this program. I maintain they are still a better part of this thing, though yes that is like saying gonorrhea is one of the better STDs to get. :b I ultimately agree about not delving into pre-Robo Murphy too much but in the case of this show a somewhat more in-depth flashback element could have helped - as you said the opportunity was at least there unlike the banal grind elsewhere. But as the thing's lacking considerably on many fronts, maybe not. ----------------------------------- Archive Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:24 am ----------------------------------- For me the serial killer flashback in Dark Justice was the only time it got even remotely exciting in Robo:PD. It had a nerve and a tension and everything after that just lacked. Culminating in the "epic" showdown in episode 4 where Robo and a bunch of people walk up a staircase. ----------------------------------- NukeLord Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:19 pm ----------------------------------- I still enjoy watching clips on YouTube just to laugh at it. I.e. when RoboCop has a fit/seizure everytime he's shot at. :D ----------------------------------- ireactions Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:42 pm ----------------------------------- When I posted awhile ago expressing fondness for PRIME DIRECTIVES, I hadn't watched it since 2001. Our esteemed webmaster Archive would remark in an email to me: I just think that you might be too close to this PRIME DIRECTIVES thing to see it objectively. It's like having a lousy girlfriend and making up forced excuses to explain all the bad things she does. God, I love Archive. He would later apologize to me for this statement, an unnecessary communication as amiable mockery between friends is always welcome. Anyway, I got a new TV and rewatched PRIME DIRECTIVES recently -- while re-reading all the posts in this thread. I like ROBOCOP PRIME DIRECTIVES. That said, looking at it now, I find I am philosophically opposed to it. I respect the choices made, but they aren't the choices I would make or encourage. It's interesting to examine the motives behind PD and note that they were almost uniformly at odds with what RoboCop fans would want to see. I think the most telling area to analyze is the RoboMovements and Page Fletcher's casting. I'm a big fan of Fletcher's work; I think it's fair to say that most RoboFans are not. From the start, the creators encouraged Fletcher to create his own version of the character and their direction was for him to play Alex Murphy, not RoboCop. It is a decision reflected in how the character is credited. Even in the shooting scripts, the descriptions always refer to the character as "Murphy" where previous film scripts described him as "Robo." Fletcher's movements are designed to show Murphy in the machine as opposed to the machine, a worthy artistic approach to me and an absolute disaster for RoboFans. Note our esteemed webmaster's own view: I'm really not trying to be mean, but it doesn't matter at all what reasoning is behind Page Fletcher's movements, they are BAD and as such they should not have been done that way. Weller's movements look cool and deliberate. Fletcher's movements look dorky and clumsy. It looks like a guy in a suit desperately trying his best to move without falling, which luckily he never did. (Well, almost never. That opening scene in "Dark Justice" when he punches the door but misses and punches the air was kinda close.) Haha! Archive's great. And if I accept that Archive represents the average RoboCop fan, then I have to concede that PRIME DIRECTIVES made a mistake. But what specifically was that mistake? I feel that a general accusation of weak talent and low budget is less-than-helpful. For me, I think what it comes down to is that the PD team had a marked avoidance of pastiche. Over numerous lunches, I expressed fondness for STAR TREK novels, DOCTOR WHO novels, THE PRISONER comic books, Sherlock Holmes novels -- the majority of which are made by new artists recreating the defining aspects of the original. The PD team would jokingly express a certain dismay towards my love for this creative art form, saying that there was nothing creative or artistic about imitating somebody else's style and work. They felt that imitation only ever led to an uncanny valley effect. They felt that as much as they liked Robert John Burke and Richard Eden, they were simply watching stand-ins for Peter Weller and admiring the mimework but not feeling any emotion for the character. They preferred to not even try to imitate but instead go their own route. There was a period where the PD team were working on numerous pre-existing properties after PD -- horror franchises, sci-fi serieses -- and their approach was generally to do their own version and willfully avoid recreating any previous elements or tying into pre-existing continuity on the grounds that (a) they wanted to create, not recreate and (b) callbacks and references could alienate casual viewers. At the time, I agreed with this. But now, I find that I don't agree anymore. Regardless of my fondness for PD, Fireworks budgeted the project specifically so that it did not need a huge viewership for them to turn a profit; all they had to do was sell it to broadcasters around the world and there would be a tidy profit on a minimal investment. Which means that the only viewers PD had were the diehard fans who obsess over Robo continuity and the RoboMovements. If PD didn't serve the only audience it had (you guys), then I have to set aside my own enjoyment of the series and point to that as a failure. Since then, the PD team has gone on to do other projects and I've noticed that they tend to be happiest and receive the best responses on original works of their own invention rather than creations that somebody else started. But regardless of the intended viewership, I also think that when writing a sequel, creators have an obligation to recreate the original -- not necessarily to remake it shot for shot, but to create a familiar foundation as a starting point. By this, I mean that whoever played RoboCop in PRIME DIRECTIVES should have absolutely done a Peter Weller impression because that's what fans of the original know and recognize as RoboCop. Paradoxically, I also think that sequel creators have a responsibility to bring in new ideas and never be content with recreating in itself. The idea that PRIME DIRECTIVES doesn't feature RoboCop; it features Alex Murphy -- it needed to be earned. Curiously, PRIME DIRECTIVES' script provides for this: the third film, "Resurrection," has a turning point where a shut-down neural node in RoboCop's brain is reactivated, leading to more human behaviour. I think that the actor should have mimicked Weller up to the point where the node was switched back on -- and then it would have been acceptable to shift towards a different performance, whatever that might have been. And if Fletcher couldn't mimic Weller as lead-in to his own interpretation, then PD should have hired someone who could. There's also the aesthetics of PRIME DIRECTIVES. The original film looked like 1987-- but with a few supplemental technologies that looked to be in the style of 1987 technology. PRIME DIRECTIVES, however, didn't look like 2000; it aims for TV budget futurism with laser swords and pulse weapons. I think it would have been best if PD had looked like the 2000 era in which it was made with a few supplementals and then RoboFans would have found this world an acceptable approximation of the first movie and taken a step back from the AI supercomputer and the biotechno virus. Alternatively, perhaps PRIME DIRECTIVES shouldn't have been a sequel to the 1987 movie at all. It could have been a continuity reboot. The first movie tells a new version of Alex Murphy becoming RoboCop in Detroit and budgeted for TV appropriately; the second is set five years into his term of duty as Delta City opens its gates; the third is ten years later as Murphy has become obsolete; the fourth is 5,000 years later with Murphy living on a desolate Earth abandoned by a spacefaring human race. (Wastelands are cheap!) I think what it comes down to is that PRIME DIRECTIVES presented Page Fletcher's Alex Murphy as Peter Weller's RoboCop, and that disconnect is jarring, alienating, distracting and upsetting to RoboFans. If PD was determined to present its new take ("The actor doesn't play RoboCop; he plays Alex Murphy"), it either needed to start out with the old approach and transition appropriately or it needed to present PD as a reboot instead of a sequel. That said, Archive takes this view: The whole deal with "actor's interpretation" and "moving differently because it is 10 years later" is an after-the-fact construction and an obvious one at that. If anything Robo should be MORE robotic and stiff if his mechanics are starting to act up after 10 years. He should not move around more fluidly like he suddenly gained new joints. No, Fletcher just didn't know what he was doing half of the time and because he got no direction or help (and didn't bother to study his character), he was mostly lost in the suit. It really is such a pity that the crew didn't pay more attention to the main character of the TV series they were making.  Fair enough. I am clearly more a fan of Paul Verhoeven than ROBOCOP, so it doesn't bother me -- but it bothers you guys and if PD didn't need much of an audience to be successful, then you were the only audience that mattered and PD should have been made with your tastes in mind. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:08 am ----------------------------------- It's interesting to examine the motives behind PD and note that they were almost uniformly at odds with what RoboCop fans would want to see. You wrote a great assessment of how PD mishandled Robocop and ultimately pissed off the fanbase by disrespecting the source material. But your assessment misses one fundamental part of what made PD the failure that it is, universally panned to this day. Not only are the parts with Robocop a mess, but the rest sucks too. You mention multiple times that the crew wanted to do something original, which often resulted in Robocop being brushed aside. That wouldn't be such a big deal if the rest of the material was compelling. It was not. The various subplots are mindnumbingly boring, with the corporate sections in particular circling around to nowhere. The original characters, plots, ideas, everything that was created by the team was lackluster... resulting in our favorite scenes still being the ones with Robocop, even though they look so wrong. They could have hired a better actor, someone big enough for the suit who moved just like Weller. And we would have liked it much more, but I don't think that would make any of us love it. Robocop is a fairly limited character, and needs a strong cast to make him shine. Look at Robocop 2for example, where Cain and his family and Nuke and all that was an invention of Frank Miller. But it slotted well into Robocop's world, and I think most fans of Robocop 2 like myself would agree that Cain's arc is interesting in its own right, and we enjoy watching this character do his thing even when Robo is not involved. The same could not be said of anything PD has to offer. It's not just that the crew did a bad job of handling Robo, they did everything poorly. I think a more recent example to look at is the Netflix Marvel shows. They all have much higher budgets than PD did, of course, but they all working with similar budgets to each other and it is clear watching them that they have to stretch the storytelling and action to make the budget work. Some shows, like Daredevil and Punisher, had good supporting casts and were well received, even though there was some filler in the plot. Others, like Iron Fist and Luke Cage, received much more mixed reactions, with many like myself feeling they were just too boring and slow. There is no 'budget' in writing, that is to say there is no reason PD couldn't have told a better story with the budget they had. If those subplots that had noting to do with Robocop had better dialgoue and plots that interested viewers, PD would be held in a much better regard. Yes, we will always be the most vocal critics of anything with Robocop, but we are far from the only ones who did not enjoy PD. There are plenty of people who know nothing or very little of Robocop who watched and didn't enjoy PD on its own merits. The entire thing is flawed, not just their take on Robocop but everything original they bring to the table too. The Series and even the reboot do a much better job of bringing something new to the table, with Michael Keaton's character being the standout role in film. PD is just a boring slot from start to finish. Don't even get me started on the awful cop drama flashbacks, which really feel like they were made for the wrong show, despite seeming to have a modicum more passion behind it. But that's the problem with PD, isn't it? There is no passion or care for anything presented onscreen. The creators were obviously not fans of Robocop, but didn't have their own story to tell either. If the story had been good, people would have enjoyed PD, even if us Robofans still hated it. But PD is universally panned for a reason, and the reason ain't just Robo! ----------------------------------- Archive Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:47 am ----------------------------------- Using a well known character for name recognition but not wanting to actually stay true to the character is something that happens way too often. The Resident Evil movies are absolutely diabolical when it comes to this. Remember the days when Darren Aronofsky was chosen to do the new RoboCop movie and he said the only thing it had in common with the original was the name. I mean i get that writers and directors want to add their own stuff but they should just do that completely instead of pretending to care about a loved character. "Resurrection," has a turning point where a shut-down neural node in RoboCop's brain is reactivated, leading to more human behaviour. I never noticed much of a difference at all. It confused me when i watched it the first time, wondering what it had actually accomplished. After he screams his face off he gets up and acts and talks pretty much the same way he did before. Robo:PD is an interesting spectacle to talk about and dissect. There are so many off things and strange decisions made it would have been quite the experience to be a "fly on the wall" when this thing was created. ----------------------------------- ireactions Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:17 am ----------------------------------- I had a much longer essay, but I thought it best to trim it to focusing on the RoboMovements in microcosm. The important thing was to include all of Archive's quotes! ** After the neural node's reactivation in "Resurrection," Murphy (at least as scripted) exhibits more human behaviour: he talks shop with Lexx Icon over an old-school car, he gets horny watching Ann R. Key doing her kata, he jokes "Forgive me" when crashing his car into a church, he cracks wise that he hopes the OCP security guards have "health and injury insurance." Curiously, the ending sequence where MediaNet describes him as "Alex Murphy," "formerly known as RoboCop" is not (if I recall correctly) in the script but added at a later stage. However, if the audience is thrown off by Page Fletcher's performance (as you were), these points of characterization are not going to come through clearly for them. ** In terms of pastiche, the PD team were really big fans of Frank Miller and pointed to DAREDEVIL and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS where Miller was dismissive of past continuity and previous styles, instead seizing upon the specific elements of Daredevil and Batman he identified with (borderline sociopathic isolationism and self-loathing) and having that define the characters in stark contradiction to other depictions. Miller did a slight segueway on DAREDEVIL and none whatsoever on his Batman comics. Miller didn't pretend to be Bill Finger or Stan Lee; he did FRANK MILLER's DAREDEVIL and FRANK MILLER's BATMAN. (Because Julian Grant, Brad Abraham and Joe O'Brien are as significant as Frank Miller. Look, it's just an analogy.) At the time, it seemed like a good approach for ROBOCOP. But now -- like I said, Archive made fun of me, but I think that when two people are friends, it is important to (a) welcome friendly mockery and (b) try to look at things from the other person's point of view. And trying to see things from Archive's perspective, ROBOCOP was a live-action feature film with a very solidified visual style and a clearly defined reality. In contrast, comic books are ink on a page and a highly interpretive art form; no two comic book artists have the same sensibility; Alan Davis' Batman looks quite different from Neal Adams, and the writing tends to reflect this. This subjectivity is superb for comic books but can be incredibly upsetting and cognitively dissonant for live action. There's also the fact that when new creators are making a sequel to a beloved original, many creators on shows like DOCTOR WHO or STAR TREK will often act like the creators are guests in a house that the fans have made their own. As houseguests, they make overtures to put the fans at ease and assure them that the material will reflect the fans' own love. DOCTOR WHO's 2005 revival added subtle notes of continuity to establish that it was the same show from 1963 while telling its own tale. The STAR TREK rebootquel had non-intrusive references to green-skinned aliens and the original captain of the Enterprise and the original actor who played Spock. They used the past to create comfort before going in their own directions. I don't feel that this is how the PD team approached their work. They all came from horror backgrounds and worked in horror after PD and horror is a more aggressive genre based in unnerving and discomforting their audience, making the viewer unsteady and anxious. It's a genre where being loving and kind to your audience in terms of the writing and production of the content is not a priority and instead it's about pursuing a personal vision and feeling that worrying about what fans want is just market research and not creativity. When I look at their subsequent projects (horror movies, thrillers about cannibals, a time-travel/kidnapping psychodrama, a script about vampire hunters, a superhero script, a space opera screenplay), this nearly brutalist approach works for their own creations and characters because their take is not in conflict with a previous version. I think it was, for RoboCop and RoboFans, offputting, to put it mildly. ----------------------------------- Archive Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:44 pm ----------------------------------- After the neural node's reactivation in "Resurrection," Murphy (at least as scripted) exhibits more human behaviour: I feel he already talked and behaved more like a person before that. In the scene when Robo first talks to the Jordan kid for example or his talk with the old tech woman in the robochamber. I get the idea they were going for but it's not the massive change as perhaps intended in the script. I can respect re-inventing something and Frank Miller is a good example. But it is of course only praised if the re-invention is good. I'm not staying current in the comic book world but I'm sure there are plenty of examples where it didn't work at all. The PD team didn't really do enough to call it "their" RoboCop. I respect the writers for trying to do something different, but i can't stop imagining how much better it would have been if the actual RoboCop character was in there. Not the bumbling goof we got. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:33 pm ----------------------------------- I appreciate PD for what they tried to do. And I can see why people are pissed too. I tend to see it as a "Elseworlds" story, like a comic-booky adaptation with a different creative team trying something different from the previous established content. Yes, they said they tried to follow the first RoboCop but I´m not sure it was their goal. They changed way too much to be connected with Verhoeven´s film (but I can see the similarieties with Starship Troopers, specially with Media-Net). Also, they had two big problems: Money and time. You can clearly see Dark Justice and Meltdown make more sense than Ressurrection and Crash & Burn: the second half of the miniseries was "too sci-fi" for Fireworks, in the words of O´Brien, so they had to change the script in the last second. And rewrite most of the action oriented stuff due to budget (the jetpack would appear in the latest film, there were ideas of having ED-209 on the films as well). That, and having to fill 90 minutes per movie made them edit the films that way (the famous stairway scenes, the looped close-ups, etc). I´m not against Julian Grant (hell, I liked some of the trickery he used with the blurred Robo using the spike) or the crew, but they didn´t have time or money to do something better. Of course that isn´t an excuse for not delivering something that would appeal to a wider Robo-audience, but it doesn´t help having a lack in those important aspects. I remember the script for Ressurrection, where RoboCop has one of his arms in a weird position, broken, sparks coming from his chest, his armor dented and showing his internal body, black goo appearing from several parts of his metallic and human parts... and then in the final film you see him with the damage chest taken from RoboCop 2, reused in 3 and The Series. I asked the make up artist for his work in my magazine; he told me they didn´t have a mold to work with and they only can have him for Fletcher and Wint´s makeup only, so he couldn´t spend more time on set. That´s the lack of money and time for this project. Everyone can blame the director on some odd choices, like the robomovements, but I´m sure it wasn´t just an "extravaganza" from the makers. I bet they rushed the production so there weren´t a way to hire a mime to have Fletcher and Wint learn the movements, and I´m sure they couldn´t afford a movement coach :b Anyway, it´s funny how technology evolves: I still have to work on my PD/Dark Justice edit, but now we can do some small trickery on a personal computer. Back then they couldn´t make some digital matte stuff to make some things look bigger, for example. Also, with the temp edits I did in the past I see they´d do something better if they didn´t have to make 90 minutes of everything (right now some platforms like Netflix could have different episode lenghts on the same series). I edited the way too-long RoboCop VS. RoboHunters fight from Meltdown and I could make it 5 minutes long, without having to fill with slow-mo and repeat the same shots over and over. But I kinda like the approach: yes, RoboCop is a secondary character in there, and they had to strech scenes to make it the lenght of a film, but there´s a blend between the old character and new stuff. Like a bridge between the previous incarnations and a newer interpretation. With more time and budget I think they could make something more appealing to everyone. Or not. ----------------------------------- Archive Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:42 pm ----------------------------------- I asked the make up artist for his work in my magazine; he told me they didn´t have a mold to work with and they only can... Any chance we could get to read those PD interviews in english? :) Also, where/how did you get a hold of the PD scripts? ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:49 pm ----------------------------------- In terms of pastiche, the PD team were really big fans of Frank Miller and pointed to DAREDEVIL and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS where Miller was dismissive of past continuity and previous styles Since my last point got skipped right over, I'll keep it going forward. Maybe they should have looked to another work of Frank Miller's for inspiration: Robocop 2 or RvT. That's right, Miller had indeed worked directly on Robocop before. In fact, now with the comic adaptions of his scripts, he is probably attached to more Robocop projects than anyone else. And he did not throw out the past continuity or style. He built upon them, specifically in Robocop 2 where pretty much all the surviving characters appear in Robocop 2, from the Old Man to Sgt. Reed. He certainly interjected his own ideas, especially on RvT which doesn't have much in the way of returning characters. However, in both cases, he did not lose sight of what made Robocop a great AND entertaining character. It's also worth noting that Frank Miller's character redefining approach is as hated as it is loved. For every DKR, which is a critically acclaimed masterpiece, there is an All-Star Batman and Robin, which is universally panned and only enjoyed as a guilty pleasure. When Miller understands and builds on a character he can be among the best, but more often than not he purposefully shits on everything that makes the character special and gets scorned for that. For proof, check out the current Superman: Year One comic which is getting terrible feedback for how little Miller seems to understand or respect Superman... just like we hate PD for not respecting or understanding Robocop. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:46 pm ----------------------------------- Any chance we could get to read those PD interviews in english? :) I think I still have them somewhere. I´ll have to search them. At some point I had to stop searching as I was having way too much people from PD for the magazine if you compare it with the rest of the franchise. Also, where/how did you get a hold of the PD scripts? At some point I had the chance to read some of the first draws, courtesy of the writers. The second half of it was way too different and have a bigger scale. The whole "Ressurrection" on the title make more sense: RoboCop gets into a limbo and stays there for most of that movie, while the AI is learning from him. In that limbo he´s Murphy, living a good life as a human, with his family, and at some point he has to choose between that dreamy life or wake up and being RoboCop again. I remember the whole Kaydick theme was bigger (he has a kinda subterranean cult of programmers, something like Ann and the girls, but hundreds of them connected to tech) and between the drafts he appears as a bad guy or a good one (I think the third movie had him as a good guy who actually dies at the end of that chapter, while the fourth one was a different draft and he´s alive and much more the bad guy from the filmed miniseries). The final chapter didn´t have long stair scenes written :b ; Robo and Cable fights on elevators and on different floors of the OCP tower. Murphy, while fighting, breaks into some kind of exhibition/museum and uses the Robo3 jetpack to reach the higher levels and confront Cable. Overall Murphy was more human in these drafts (he cracked some jokes in Dark Justice) but it was a different story. I can see why they demanded changes (I understand Fireworks being afraid the second half could be way too cyberpunk, something that bothered the writers, and I can see why some scenes would need a bigger planification and budget). Both Cable and Murphy had brutal damage done to them (Murphy had his internal circuits showed and the black goo appears in more than one scene). I remember they weren´t finished, so there were some scenes missing from the whole script. It jumped from some parts to another. I think they still had to wait for each other to finish and complete these spots. ----------------------------------- ireactions Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:13 am ----------------------------------- At some point I had the chance to read some of the first draws, courtesy of the writers. The second half of it was way too different and have a bigger scale. The whole "Ressurrection" on the title make more sense: RoboCop gets into a limbo and stays there for most of that movie, while the AI is learning from him. In that limbo he´s Murphy, living a good life as a human, with his family, and at some point he has to choose between that dreamy life or wake up and being RoboCop again. I remember the whole Kaydick theme was bigger (he has a kinda subterranean cult of programmers, something like Ann and the girls, but hundreds of them connected to tech) and between the drafts he appears as a bad guy or a good one (I think the third movie had him as a good guy who actually dies at the end of that chapter, while the fourth one was a different draft and he´s alive and much more the bad guy from the filmed miniseries). The final chapter didn´t have long stair scenes written :b ; Robo and Cable fights on elevators and on different floors of the OCP tower. Murphy, while fighting, breaks into some kind of exhibition/museum and uses the Robo3 jetpack to reach the higher levels and confront Cable. Overall Murphy was more human in these drafts (he cracked some jokes in Dark Justice) but it was a different story. I can see why they demanded changes (I understand Fireworks being afraid the second half could be way too cyberpunk, something that bothered the writers, and I can see why some scenes would need a bigger planification and budget). Both Cable and Murphy had brutal damage done to them (Murphy had his internal circuits showed and the black goo appears in more than one scene). I remember they weren´t finished, so there were some scenes missing from the whole script. It jumped from some parts to another. I think they still had to wait for each other to finish and complete these spots. It's great that you got to read the earlier drafts. I only ever received the shooting scripts which were very interesting but not too different from what aired. (I don't have them anymore.) Intriguingly, Kaydick's cult of programmers is described in the Hong Kong VCD release of "Resurrection," something the PD team found hilarious. I can respect re-inventing something and Frank Miller is a good example. But it is of course only praised if the re-invention is good. I'm not staying current in the comic book world but I'm sure there are plenty of examples where it didn't work at all. The PD team didn't really do enough to call it "their" RoboCop. I respect the writers for trying to do something different, but i can't stop imagining how much better it would have been if the actual RoboCop character was in there. Not the bumbling goof we got. One thing I find amusingly ironic: the PD team were very fond of the movie SUPERMAN RETURNS, a slavishly reverential sequel to SUPERMAN (1977) that diligently recreated the soundtrack and repeated key lines of dialogue and mimicked multiple plot points and reiterated specific scenes and shot compositions. Paradoxically, the PD team would never, ever, ever have attempted to carry on with a previous filmmaker's style and would urgently distance themselves from trying to write like Miner and Neumeier or film like Verhoeven or imitate Weller. And while SUPERMAN RETURNS is technically masterful, the movie left audiences cold. To me, it seemed that SUPERMAN RETURNS revisited a 1977 film that in 2005 looked dated and out of touch and also didn't bring anything new or inspired to Superman, so that's an area where reverent pastiche is as much a handicap as defiantly avoiding tradition. I think any sequel to anything needs to find some balance between reverence and reinvention. And regardless of however inspired that reinvention might be, reading this thread and rewatching PRIME DIRECTIVES has made it clear: RoboFans need specific signifiers for RoboCop to be recognizable to them as their hero. RoboCop needs to move with a mechanical determination and present as an unstoppable force who wins two-thirds of his fights. RoboCop needs to tower above other cast members unless they're his villains. RoboCop needs to look, with the helmet removed, like his face has been hollowed out and stretched over a spherical computer core. And RoboCop needs to be conveyed by an actor who, if he isn't granted a movement coach, has a natural gift for mimework in the suit. And, to RoboFans, Page Fletcher not mimicking Weller and not capturing anything of Weller's grace is insulting. RoboFans would likely point out: any actor who plays Batman learns how to move with a cape. Any person playing Superman learns to convey flight in a harness. Anyone playing the Flash learns how to sprint. Any performer who wears the Spider-Man suit has to perform gymnastics. Any man who plays James Bond has to carry himself well in a tuxedo. And I think for RoboFans, anyone who is offered the role of RoboCop with no mime coach needs to either be a natural mime or turn down the job. It is not my criticism of Fletcher, but it is an absolutely reasonable criticism. ** I wrote a much longer essay that I decided to trim down to focusing on Fletcher, but a short version of the other topics: In 2000 - 2001, I watched ROBOCOP (1987) and PRIME DIRECTIVES on a 24 inch cathode ray tube TV. The haze of scanlines made both projects look to my 14 year-old eyes to be on about the same visual level. If the actor wore the RoboSuit, he was RoboCop. Also, at that time, I was a huge fan of low budget syndicated shows: SLIDERS, ANDROMEDA, HERCULES, XENA, SINBAD, JACK OF ALL TRADES, CLEOPATRA 2525, SHE SPIES -- all of which were low budget fantasy action hours and PRIME DIRECTIVES was part of that era. When rewatching the 1987 film and PRIME DIRECTIVES on a 55 inch LED television and for the first time in forever, I finally realized the massive visual gulf between the two projects. The 1987 film looks like a masterful time capsule; the 2000-era PD looks like it's the 1960s BBC televised stage theatre version of ROBOCOP that was remade with a bigger budget 30 years later. As a fan of 1960s BBC televised stage theatre, this doesn't bother me at all. And I still adore the silly fight choreography of XENA and HERCULES and the enclosed and limited sets of CLEOPATRA 2525 and the bargain basement lack of polish of SINBAD -- but these are all products of a time that has passed and subject to the limitations of the era in which they were made. And I would not fault anyone for finding it inept and inadequate. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:04 am ----------------------------------- In 2000 - 2001, I watched ROBOCOP (1987) and PRIME DIRECTIVES on a 24 inch cathode ray tube TV. The haze of scanlines made both projects look to my 14 year-old eyes to be on about the same visual level. If the actor wore the RoboSuit, he was RoboCop. Me too, and that brings it back to my first (summarily glossed over) point. Even if ya love Robocop's appearances in PD, it still sucks. Robocop has his name on the cover, so takes all the blame, but guess what? It isn't just the parts Robocoop that are bad. When I first saw PD, I was around the same age, and thrilled to find new Robocop material. I loved Robocop's fight with Bone Machine and later with Robocable, and the cheesy effects and poor acting didn't stand out back then. What did is the drivel that surrounded it. All the original ideas and characters are painfully dull. You have speny many paragraphs dissecting how the PD team mishandled Robocop. But there is a much larger problem, which is that the team mishandled everything else too. There are some people who love Robocop so much they love seeing him anywhere, anytime. I am one of those people. I could forgive Fletcher's pitiful Robocop performance, because at the end of the day it is still Robocop. But he is not the reason PD is unwatchable. Every second reeks of wasted potential, and for a team that was so intent of doing something different, they did not bring anything interesting and inspired with the project. In my mind, Robocop: Alpha Commando is considerably more successful. Alpha Commando completely reinvented Robocop, having him crack jokes and act like an idiot. But at least they were bold an unabashed in their approach, with a new style and approach. PD doesn't offer anything new, instead it cheaply apes the style of previous Robocop so that it looks like Robocop on the surface but has noting below that surface. For proof look no further than Robocable, a design that is truly derivative and uninspired... the best they could think of was to have a shiny visor? So much for that Frank Miller inspiration. At least when he made a new Robocop it looked nothing like the original. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:40 am ----------------------------------- It's great that you got to read the earlier drafts. I only ever received the shooting scripts which were very interesting but not too different from what aired. (I don't have them anymore.) It was very different from the finished product (I think RoboCop wasn´t "old" and had the blue visor and streamlined changes in that draft). I asked them why they didn´t submit it to make it a graphic novel. I think being hired writers for a franchise make it difficult to get a deal for it, but I think it would make an interesting comic. I feel pissed the PD website went offline and with it the plans of a "Collector´s Edition", as each release becomes with Zero extras. As a film guy I wanted to know more about stuff (even with unpopular or bad films I want to see how they make the movies and their thoughts, so I´m picky when I have to choose a Blu Ray edition). They recorded audiocommentaries for each movie, and that dissappear. According to Grant, he sent all the behind the scenes stuff to the people who distributed PD in UK, and he never got that back. Funny, the UK editions didn´t have any extra. The only edition with extras was the Japanese one. They had a single DVD for them. Extras included the short making ofs (same on the RoboCop 2001 french release, the one remixed in this site), trailers and teasers, a longer documentary and some promotional stuff (mostly on a green screen, mostly working as "Previously on RoboCop: Prime Directives"). First time I saw PD was on DVD, but there was some minor edits on the SCI-FI released version. I remember being in the forums way back and finding a short scene where Murphy deletes some The Series footage from his brain. There was a trailer which showed the original ending of Crash & Burn (an homage to the first movie: Robo´s shadow on a wall, which would appear before the credits roll, after leaving the OCP builiding). As a completist, I´d like to see stuff like that to see how different these cuts and stuff would make the films. In that same trailer there was another joke from Dark Justice: in the final film they talk on OCP´s bathrooms about the urinals and how can recognize the, well, members of the company. In the trailer, the urinal sucks the guy to it as they detected in the urine some drugs. It´d be cool that some company could take care and release a proper edition if they find the special features and cuts. Arrow will release the first RoboCop on Blu Ray, but how many times should we buy the same edition of the first movie? The rest of the franchise need a decent release as well. I own The Series on a single Blu Ray with a making of taken from this website. Wouldn´t it be great to have the episodes in high def and having a remastered behind the scenes featurette (or new interviews with crew and cast)? I wouldn´t mind a decent Inspector Gadg... Alpha Commando release on Blu Ray. I´d happily add to the collection, even if I´m not a big fan of it. ----------------------------------- Archive Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:01 pm ----------------------------------- The only edition with extras was the Japanese one. They had a single DVD for them. I've been trying to track that down for some time, but it doesn't seem like anyone got it. And it's never up for sale on ebay. It's so frustrating that those commentaries are just in a box somewhere and will probably never get released. You have speny many paragraphs dissecting how the PD team mishandled Robocop. But there is a much larger problem, which is that the team mishandled everything else too. Pretty much. Julian Grant himself stated that he was hired because he always stayed under budget and on time. But other than that the topic of quality doesn't seem to have come up. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:24 pm ----------------------------------- The only edition with extras was the Japanese one. They had a single DVD for them. It's so frustrating that those commentaries are just in a box somewhere and will probably never get released. I asked both writers and Julian Grant about them, but I´m not sure who has them. I remember Brad Abraham told me he would like to make one himself for an anniversary or something. No one gave me a clear answer about these audios. They remember recording them, but there´s no signal they´d appear soon. I tried to track most of the stuff to trying to do a mock-up Blu Ray with extras, but sadly some of the quality of the videos I had are pretty bad (remember, the miniseries were done at the end of the 90s), so I doubt it´d look decent on modern screens. I've been trying to track that down for some time, but it doesn't seem like anyone got it. I own it. And I have to pay way tooooooooooooooo much for it. It was listed in Japan for around 30 bucks, then Customs appeared from the shadows and asked way too much bucks. Add the shipping costs. I was really pissed; even sharing an order with a friend it was way too much expensive. I wanted to make a longer documentary with it, but again there are background music all the time, make it way too difficult to cut and remix it without noticing the jumps in the music. ----------------------------------- Archive Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:39 pm ----------------------------------- I think a NEW commentary done now would probably be far more interesting than the one they made back then. I can only guess but i'm pretty sure it was mostly them being positive, praising all the actors and claiming everything with the production was super fun. "Page Fletcher is such a genius. His movements are mesmerizing!" If done now I'd hope to hear some more nuanced information about the production. But i fear it is probably gonna be 6+ hours of bitterness and hostility against fans who doesn't get it. I own it. And I have to pay way tooooooooooooooo much for it. It was listed in Japan for around 30 bucks, then Customs appeared from the shadows and asked way too much bucks. Woah!... :shock: ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:57 pm ----------------------------------- I think a NEW commentary done now would probably be far more interesting than the one they made back then. I can only guess but i'm pretty sure it was mostly them being positive, praising all the actors and claiming everything with the production was super fun. "Page Fletcher is such a genius. His movements are mesmerizing!" If done now I'd hope to hear some more nuanced information about the production. But i fear it is probably gonna be 6+ hours of bitterness and hostility against fans who doesn't get it. Not sure about that. I mean, the writers confessed they needed more time and money to make their vision a reality, plus there´s the studio interferences. Maybe Julian Grant could be more possitive about the whole thing, but I assume you´d have to talk about problems or changes when you have to sit for 6 hours. How many hours can you fill with just "look how good this is!"? I remember the Starship Troopers commetary on DVD. While being friends, Verhoeven took the European view on the recent wars, comparing the movie to troops in Iran, and Neumeier showed a more American, traditional look on the subject. I think they could easily disagree in things talking about PD. If I live in the US I wouldn´t mind asking them on audio for stuff, to make some kind of doc and mixing it with the previous stuff, but living in Europe would be difficult to get a decent schedule due to different timezones. I had to interview some people that way (Galyn Görg among them) and while they´re patient, you can feel in your brain it´s getting late, making your English less impressive :b I own it. And I have to pay way tooooooooooooooo much for it. It was listed in Japan for around 30 bucks, then Customs appeared from the shadows and asked way too much bucks. Woah!... :shock: Yeah, I have the pack, and looks pretty nice. There were the single bonus DVD at some Japanese kind-of eBay for a ridiculous cheap price, and there were some good quality trailers from that edition on Youtube, but Japanese usually don´t speak English, so I couldn´t talk with the guy on Youtube for the extras or understand a thing about the Japanese eBay site. There was a pack on Amazon Germany, if not mistaken, but they asked around 70 bucks. I didn´t buy from them because I thought it was way too much money, but I ended paying almost the same thanks to Customs. Funny how life works. ----------------------------------- ireactions Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:32 pm ----------------------------------- It was very different from the finished product (I think RoboCop wasn´t "old" and had the blue visor and streamlined changes in that draft). I asked them why they didn´t submit it to make it a graphic novel. I think being hired writers for a franchise make it difficult to get a deal for it, but I think it would make an interesting comic. I never read these drafts, but the PD team told me all about the original ideas. Rob Bottin dismissed their script descriptions and instead inflicted battle damage on Murphy's suits and they ended up liking that approach a lot. I feel pissed the PD website went offline and with it the plans of a "Collector´s Edition", as each release becomes with Zero extras. As a film guy I wanted to know more about stuff (even with unpopular or bad films I want to see how they make the movies and their thoughts, so I´m picky when I have to choose a Blu Ray edition). They recorded audiocommentaries for each movie, and that dissappear. It really says a lot about how Fireworks Entertainment, after successfully recouping their investment and turning a profit on the international sales, promptly cut whatever little support they'd ever given PD, making no effort to market the series or get people to watch it or get it on DVD or maintain the website. That said, the PD team, in 2005, expressed relief that their 2000 era commentary had not been released, saying that it was now extremely dated. I'd certainly buy a PD blu-ray release, but I don't know if it would change anything for Robofans who have a markedly different (and perhaps more legitimate) view of PD than the small general audience the mini series received. It may be shocking to hear this, but PRIME DIRECTIVES received a fair number of positive reviews. Fireworks Entertainment didn't bother to market the series, so the reviews then weren't in tremendous quantity, but a small amount of local newspapers and genre sites in 2001 gave it good reviews for the story and the performances and the conclusion. Sci-Fi Weekly (which operated with editorial autonomy from the Sci-Fi Channel which would air the show) and the Cavalcade of Schlock noted that the action sequences were standard syndicated TV fare and that the slow motion, in vogue for TV during 2000 - 2002, was plainly stretching a thin budget to fill a timeslot and expressed exhaustion with constant repetitions of, "What are you prepared to do?" but expressed fondness and satisfaction. Brandon Marcello, a fan here who trashed PD based on the trailers, got advance VHS cassettes and gave all four films glowing reviews. If you watched PD during its first release on a standard definition TV and after an afternoon of RELIC HUNTER, HERCULES, XENA, SINBAD, CLEOPATRA 2525, MUTANT X and TRACKER, it looked like every other syndicated show out there. And I don't think a high definition release would benefit most of these shows. Far from elevating the content, removing the blur and haziness of standard definition would show how these 90s/2000s shows were designed for a small and fuzzy TV screen and look empty and bare when presented in 1080p. They look empty and bare now as a 480p image bicubically upscaled to 720p on a modern television. I'm a very big fan of DOCTOR WHO, especially the 60s and 70s era episodes that look like a middle school stage production that somehow hired adult actors. I enjoy XENA and SHE SPIES still. But... I'm not sure there's a lot there for a modern audience to appreciate unless that audience watched them in their original context and format and actually enjoyed them then and see them through that lens, especially when the original ROBOCOP looks like a high definition masterpiece and when it seems that most Robofans here hated PD even when watching it in its original standard definition, syndicated format. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:50 pm ----------------------------------- I'd certainly buy a PD blu-ray release, but I don't know if it would change anything for Robofans who have a markedly different (and perhaps more legitimate) view of PD than the small general audience the mini series received. People here who don´t like the miniseries said they´d buy a "collector´s edition" release if they have new content and bonus stuff. Also, most of us have different editions of the first movie, but we didn´t have any luck with the sequels (I own them on the DVD Trilogy, but didn´t purchase them in Blu Ray due to the lack of a decent release with featurettes. The only releases with that kind stuff are Region 1 releases, so I can´t play them unless I get a multi-region player). They release the first one over and over and, from time to time, the two sequels, but they skip the rest of the franchise. It´s funny that PD had a ton of DVDs releases in Europe (different editions on UK, Germany and such), but without something that would give us the consumers the chance to buy it again. I find interesting how PD makes a lot of discussion, by the way. We all agree the first movie is the greatest (even with some crazy ones saying 2 is the best one :b) and there´s a discussion over Robo3 sometimes, but this one still generates topics after almost 20 years (wow, time flies). And yet recent efforts like RebootCop are almost forgotten. ----------------------------------- Archive Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:34 pm ----------------------------------- I find interesting how PD makes a lot of discussion, by the way. We all agree the first movie is the greatest (even with some crazy ones saying 2 is the best one :b) and there´s a discussion over Robo3 sometimes, but this one still generates topics after almost 20 years (wow, time flies). And yet recent efforts like RebootCop are almost forgotten. It is because the reboot was some bland shiiiiit. :) It wasn't bad enough to be a train wreck either so there isn't much to talk about. I've always been fascinated by movies that just completely fail like "Superman 4" and "Highlander 2." Where certain decisions are just completely off and you can only image what happened behind the camera. PD is one of those things that it's just so interesting to try to get in the creators heads while they were making it. But as Robert Burke was quoted saying, "we make the good ones the same as we make the bad ones. We show up, we try our best." And it's true. The PD team didn't set out to make something bad, things just happened. ----------------------------------- NukeLord Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:11 pm ----------------------------------- The notion that the creators of PD ignored 2 and 3 because they felt they were inferior films is laughable when you see what they served up with PD. I couldn't sit through PD again, but I can revisit 3 - and most definitely revisit 2. PD can't hold a handle to either sequel. ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:11 pm ----------------------------------- The notion that the creators of PD ignored 2 and 3 because they felt they were inferior films is laughable when you see what they served up with PD. I couldn't sit through PD again, but I can revisit 3 - and most definitely revisit 2. PD can't hold a handle to either sequel. Same here myself. I even give RemakeCop more credit because poor as it ended up there is something of a sense that folks tried and cared on that one. Might have been lip-service but still. PD's director didn't really try (because his priority was a schedule and dollar amount) the lead didn't care (just up and deciding he knew better for a character that has had many hours of established movement performance over a dozen years by several other actors - a character that as someone (I think Pimp actually) noted is 'built to move a certain way'.) As Pimp said, when both the RoboCop part of it AND everything else in it just are crapped on, well... Bah, I don't have much to add that wouldn't be overly repetitive. Hence why I've mainly just been enjoying the discussion from the bench. I know nobody working on PD set out to make something that was trash, but the whole thing was just a cascade of poor execution it's frankly hard to not be let down by it even if you have not too high expectations, nevermind remembering this is supposed to be a continuation of the 1987 masterpiece that is RoboCop. I don't expect anything to match the original, mind you, but give me something. R2, R3, the '94 Series all had - to varying degrees - something. Again even the remake had something - very little of something, but still. PD? Only 'something' it is is an exercise in viewer frustration. It's not good, it's not 'so bad it's good', it's just plain bad - and there just is little to redeem it. At least it still makes for some decent debate as pointed out, so I guess there's that. :thumb1: ----------------------------------- ireactions Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:11 am ----------------------------------- The notion that the creators of PD ignored 2 and 3 because they felt they were inferior films is laughable when you see what they served up with PD. I couldn't sit through PD again, but I can revisit 3 - and most definitely revisit 2. PD can't hold a handle to either sequel. Same here myself. This has no relevance whatsoever to the quality or lack thereof in PRIME DIRECTIVES, but the mini-series does not significantly ignore ROBOCOP 2 or 3. When Cable is turned into a cyborg, it's noted that there have been previous attempts and they all failed, a clear reference to the sequence of RoboCop 2s that went insane and killed the scientists that made them and then themselves with Cain being the last attempt. Dr. Frost refers to Cadillac Heights as a former warzone, a clear reference to ROBOCOP 3. An earlier draft featured the jetpack from the third film. In the unpublished novelization (one of the PD writers started writing it and made it as far as the scene in "Meltdown" where Cable attacks the Old Woman), Murphy reflects upon how he lost Ann Lewis horrifically, but everyone else in his life left over time. Marie Lazarus and Nico left Detroit, Reed retired, OCP inevitably restored itself despite its troubles in ROBOCOP 3 and can never truly be stopped. The only area where PRIME DIRECTIVES is completely at odds with the sequels is that police officers casually referred to RoboCop as "Murphy" in the second and third film, but PRIME DIRECTIVES indicates that RoboCop's identity is a guarded secret restricted to the highest echelons of OCP. In every conversation I ever had with the PD team, they referred to the second and third films as canon and only contradicted them with regards to Murphy's human identity. And I'll reiterate that this of course has no bearing on PD's quality. :-) ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:47 am ----------------------------------- In the unpublished novelization (one of the PD writers started writing it and made it as far as the scene in "Meltdown" where Cable attacks the Old Woman), Murphy reflects upon how he lost Ann Lewis horrifically, but everyone else in his life left over time. Marie Lazarus and Nico left Detroit, Reed retired, OCP inevitably restored itself despite its troubles in ROBOCOP 3 and can never truly be stopped. Interesting. It´d be a interesting read, knowing the novelizations usually had different scenes and situations that didn´t have the chance to get done for the films. The original draft of Resurrection had a scene where you can see how Ellen Murphy died, something they later scrapped and leave it for the audience imagination. The notion that the creators of PD ignored 2 and 3 because they felt they were inferior films is laughable when you see what they served up with PD. RoboCop 2 was pretty different from the first one as well: different music, different tone, which goes from cartoon stuff to mere sadistic situations, a script not polished enough, a different portray of the character, etc... It´s a well made film but without too much soul. I think people dig it because Weller (and part of the cast) was involved, calling it a "true sequel" to the first one. I wonder what people would think of it if Robert Burke worked on 2 instead of 3. Anyway: We wanted to make Prime Directives very much its own thing and have its own energy, and didn´t want to get caught in any continuity traps. But if you´re a fan of the series or RoboCop 3, you can still say this is part of the canon. There are some stuff people say to please fans. I won´t say they lied about them being fans of Robo1, but this quote seems honest and makes perfect sense with the miniseries. They didn´t look like the other productions. Again, the "Elseworlds" I said on other posts. When promoting a product everyone will say anything. I remember checking the Q&A from this site, with the writers giving a rational explanation for goofs, like they were made on purpose. Can´t blame them, as I read Juanjo RYP (artist on Frank Miller´s RoboCop) had death threats for changing RoboCop´s gloves design. ----------------------------------- ireactions Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:20 pm ----------------------------------- In the unpublished novelization (one of the PD writers started writing it and made it as far as the scene in "Meltdown" where Cable attacks the Old Woman), Murphy reflects upon how he lost Ann Lewis horrifically, but everyone else in his life left over time. Marie Lazarus and Nico left Detroit, Reed retired, OCP inevitably restored itself despite its troubles in ROBOCOP 3 and can never truly be stopped. Interesting. It´d be a interesting read, knowing the novelizations usually had different scenes and situations that didn´t have the chance to get done for the films. The original draft of Resurrection had a scene where you can see how Ellen Murphy died, something they later scrapped and leave it for the audience imagination. How did Ellen die in the original draft? I only received the end result of this discussion process where the PD team had imagined Ellen dying of a home invasion where Murphy wasn't there to protect her, causing James' anger towards his father and his desire for revenge in "Resurrection." However, the writers felt uncomfortable giving Ellen such a horrific end. They wondered if the loss of Murphy caused her to commit suicide, but they also disliked the idea that Ellen abandoned James. So they decided to leave it vague because for James to be where he was, Ellen needed to be gone -- and they felt that when James and Murphy set aside their conflict and choose to work together, they are honouring their love for Ellen. I'm going off memory on this, but as I recall, the novelization was less about changing the story and more about adding details to the delivery that wouldn't have worked in live action. Cable describes how he feels like everyone in Delta City has had plastic surgery to remold jaws and botox their foreheads. Carl S. Buck, the recurring police officer, has a flashback to how he was demoted to patrolman when an OCP executive was confiscating ammunition and Buck punched him. The scene of Sara Cable and James Murphy in the elevator is followed by them having sex which was not in the scripts and the screenwriter having observed sexual tension between the characters in the elevator. We get more backstory on Sara Cable and how she was raised in a male dominated home where women were expected to dispense sex and child care and cooking and how Sara was relentless in escaping her old life and felt stifled by her marriage to Cable. One thing that may speak to the PD team's attitude to sequels: the writing of Alex J. Murphy is distinctly neither Peter Weller nor Page Fletcher. Murphy is written with a lot of friendly swearing in his banter with Cable, far beyond what a TV movie would have permitted and well outside the calm, steady police officers that Weller and Fletcher played. It is more Fletcher in that where Weller's Murphy seemed quietly acceptant of death in the line of duty, the novelization and Fletcher's Murphy is clearly terrified of the Motor City Mangler serial killer. In "Dark Justice," there's the implication (intended or not) that Weller's cool in the 1987 film is living up to the example Cable set for him. In the novelization, Murphy is written not as an approximation of an actor, but as a gentle but capable Detroit police officer with a wife and son for whom policing is an expression of his inner decency and he could just as easily be acting out that decency as a construction worker or an auto mechanic. The novel writes him as a working class police officer first and as Alex Murphy second, if that makes any sense. Readers who looked for Peter Weller or Page Fletcher in these pages wouldn't find them -- which says a lot to you about the PD team's style in adaptations and sequels. For better or for worse. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:44 pm ----------------------------------- How did Ellen die in the original draft? I only received the end result of this discussion process where the PD team had imagined Ellen dying of a home invasion where Murphy wasn't there to protect her, causing James' anger towards his father and his desire for revenge in "Resurrection." However, the writers felt uncomfortable giving Ellen such a horrific end. They wondered if the loss of Murphy caused her to commit suicide, but they also disliked the idea that Ellen abandoned James.. Murphy, when in that dreamy limbo being human again, ends at some point finding Ellen laying on the bedroom´s floor, surrounded by pills. Overdose. So the suicide situation was considering. I remember the writers talked about her getting meds for her depression and taking way more, ending her live, but avoided giving details in the finished product. The scene of Sara Cable and James Murphy in the elevator is followed by them having sex which was not in the scripts and the screenwriter having observed sexual tension between the characters in the elevator. So there´s new scenes :b I find it interesting, but can´t picture it. I tend to see their relationship like "mother/son", giving hints about who cared for him after their parents´ death and showing what happend to his father. Yet Sarah Cable uses her appeal in the miniseries (tries to get Damian seducing him in the last installment, moments before she hits him to send Damian to the elevator). ----------------------------------- ireactions Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:10 pm ----------------------------------- I think a NEW commentary done now would probably be far more interesting than the one they made back then. I can only guess but i'm pretty sure it was mostly them being positive, praising all the actors and claiming everything with the production was super fun. "Page Fletcher is such a genius. His movements are mesmerizing!" If done now I'd hope to hear some more nuanced information about the production. But i fear it is probably gonna be 6+ hours of bitterness and hostility against fans who doesn't get it. Well, as someone who had lunch after lunch after lunch after lunch with the PD team, I can assure you that the PD team were not endlessly flattering themselves nor were they bitter and hostile towards the fans. The PD team were severely and hilariously self-critical, but not critical in the areas that RoboPimp and Stan the Man would aim for. At the same time, they were still getting paycheques from Fireworks and promoting the series, so it would have been inappropriate to attack their studio when they were still shopping the series to distributors and broadcasters. The PD team felt that "Dark Justice" was edited a bit slowly and short on action. They chastised themselves for this, noting that the initial Canadian airings saw fairly high ratings for "Dark Justice" and then a massive drop for "Meltdown" and the next two, indicating that the audience had expected all four episodes to consist of Sara Cable and James Murphy having solemn, slow conversations in elevators with what this forum has termed "riveting OCP Boardroom Action." They vowed to never make such a mistake again in future projects. The scene where RoboCop is shorter than James in "Dark Justice" was also a point of frustration and I remember one afternoon wandering a comic book store with the PD gang and passing by a cardboard cutout of Spider-Man and Wolverine where Wolverine was mistakenly taller than Spider-Man when Wolverine of the comics is supposed to be a short bruiser. The creators began randomly contemplating how they might someday try to amend the height error by recompositing Fletcher in the shot. They were also frustrated by the misaligned chinguard in "Meltdown"'s graveyard scene, a shooting day where the RoboSuit kept falling apart with every step. One of the writers remarked that the original PD pitch had been for ROBOCORPS with an army of RoboCops, but given the trouble with just one person wearing this suit in one scene, the thought of dealing with 15 - 20 RoboSuits in the same scene was too terrifying to imagine. They were unhappy with the Murphy/Cable car chase, noting that with time running short and footage needed, second unit had filmed two police cars driving behind each other and that was the car chase. They were also deeply embarrassed by the incorrectly attributed quote at the end of "Meltdown." The PD team were not happy with Murphy's helmetless makeup and also frustrated when their budget didn't extend to a filmed but unfinished scene in "Resurrection" where the helmet was to come off and the chinguard was, through the magic of CGI, to mechanically split in half and fold back into the suit. The effects weren't completed and the scene aired without the computer augmentation. The PD team described how when Fletcher walked on set in the helmetless makeup, they thought it was a temp makeup for lighting and were aghast to learn that this was it, but with the clock ticking, they had to start filming. They were upset with themselves about this. They were also disappointed to use footage from THE SERIES for explosions and Murphy driving his car. I would say that the area where the PD team were the most self-critical and disappointed in themselves: they were deeply frustrated with their work on "Crash and Burn." They made a serious mistake where Murphy tells Ann R. Key that "no one dies tonight," but then Ann proceeds to murder several innocent OCP security guards and Murphy tells her, "Nice moves." In the script, Ann's defeats were bloodless, but this was accidentally forgotten in trying to raise some tension in the sequence. No reshoots were possible. The PD team confessed that some of them fell asleep at night wondering how to re-edit the scene to remove the deaths and when they couldn't figure it out, they wondered if they could remove Murphy saying, "Nice moves," but the shot of the elevator doors closing was needed and no alternate take was available. We would be eating lunch and talking about the latest DOCTOR WHO audioplay and then a writer would suddenly stare into space and mutter, "Could we have redubbed 'Nice moves' with something else?" They were also disappointed that "Crash and Burn" was severely curtailed by budget and time and rushing. They had hoped to do better than RoboCop and Cable walking up a flight of stairs for an entire movie. I protested that I felt tense and nervous and on the edge of insanity throughout the entire finale as it seemed impossible to stop SAINT and Kaydick and save Cable and Jordan. I said that the epitome of RoboCop to me was two cyborgs lunging at each other and firing Auto-9s at each other and that this is beautiful. The team said they appreciated that, but they could only ever see the lost flourishes (jetpack!) and were deeply annoyed by the seemingly endless stairwell. They were also irritated by the SAINT set. They found it grimly ironic that the police station had been a large, vast set while the SAINT set was a small, cramped space. However... The PD team has absolutely no criticisms of the actors. I don't think they would say that Page Fletcher was a genius for his movements, but they felt that Fletcher was a genius in mining Murphy's emotional torment and pain. They said that Fletcher made them feel when he grieved for Cable and when asked for his name intoned, "I don't have one." They loved Fletcher's performance of: "You're a cop. I'm a cop. My name is Alex Murphy." To them, this was more important than whether or not Fletcher walked or raised his arms the way Peter Weller did. (They may have been severely mistaken with regards to how Robofans would react to Fletcher's movements.) They adored Kevin Jubinville and Maria Del Mar as Damian and Sara and are very proud of the Riveting OCP Boardroom Action which they felt deeply conveyed the corporate culture of OCP and Delta City. They thought Maurice Dean Wint's Cable and RoboCable were incredible. They loved the news segments that alternatively portray RoboCop as a hero or a villain using the exact same footage for both versions. They were nervous about the ads selling collector's debris from Cable's death scene and wondered if it were a step too far. They were happiest with Anthony Lemke's James Murphy, feeling that Lemke's performance was compelling and sincere and they loved Lemke's various improvisations in "Crash and Burn" from his hysteria during the car chase to his diving out of the gunfight in the OCP building. They were particularly happy with the Riveting OCP Boardroom Action because it isolated James to the OCP environment until he left, at which point the character transitioned from a villain to a hero. They were proud of how that let to the Murphy/James confrontation in "Resurrection." Also, TV was driven by two people having a conversation in this era; TV was stage theatre for broadcast. I did not have the chance to discuss with them how they feel about the slow-motion action sequences which were the standard for syndicated TV in 2000 but are now an extremely dated approach that has fallen completely out of style, but I imagine they take issue with that because these are self-critical people who were sometimes overly self-loathing -- although they kept a lot of that to themselves while they were employed by Fireworks to promote a Fireworks project (that Fireworks had starved of time and money and attention). They also took the view that even though Fireworks undernourished and starved PD, Fireworks had given them a lot of creative freedom even if that freedom were under severe financial restrictions. And they were happy with the ending. They were pleased with how at the end, RoboCop is free of his imposed prime directives and retains the first three as a matter of choice as Alex Murphy. They were delighted by how the reconciliation between Murphy and James resulted. They were proud of the ending where Murphy marches alone into a rioting city and ultimately, they were not happy about everything about PRIME DIRECTIVES, but they were happy enough. Or at least I think they were. They were not hostile towards the fans. But they were hurt by the shockingly abusive harassment that they received before PD had been released. Once it was airing, they accepted all criticisms and had plenty of their own to add. The PD team has a very nuanced view of their work, but the areas where they are critical are not the areas where RoboFans are critical. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:45 pm ----------------------------------- The PD team felt that "Dark Justice" was edited a bit slowly and short on action. Yep, I talked recently with one of the writers and he told me he couldn´t make it for more than 10 minutes. They can spot the weak elements, so they´re not living on an alternate dimension The scene where RoboCop is shorter than James in "Dark Justice" was also a point of frustration and I remember one afternoon wandering a comic book store with the PD gang and passing by a cardboard cutout of Spider-Man and Wolverine where Wolverine was mistakenly taller than Spider-Man when Wolverine of the comics is supposed to be a short bruiser. The creators began randomly contemplating how they might someday try to amend the height error by recompositing Fletcher in the shot. These are aspects a director should handle. I remember seeing some pictures from the set of The Dark Knight Rises where Bale´s Batman had some help to look bigger than Gordon Levitt. They could trick the scene having a fake elevated floor for Fletcher to walk by, leaving the regular one for Lemke. I assume time and budget had part of the blame for not trying. One of the writers remarked that the original PD pitch had been for ROBOCORPS with an army of RoboCops, but given the trouble with just one person wearing this suit in one scene, the thought of dealing with 15 - 20 RoboSuits in the same scene was too terrifying to imagine. I also talked about RoboCorps with them, and they thought it was hard to believe it could be made with the PD´s budget. Having limited bucks for the miniseries, they thought it could be imposible to handle that post-apocalyptic, Mad Max, war concept. The PD team were not happy with Murphy's helmetless makeup and also frustrated when their budget didn't extend to a filmed but unfinished scene in "Resurrection" where the helmet was to come off and the chinguard was, through the magic of CGI, to mechanically split in half and fold back into the suit. I always toy with the idea of trying to make it by myself. I´m not a FX expert, but I understand some basics and while someone can´t archive full Hollywood flavour on his computer, I found pretty funny that you can make these kind of stuff at your home with some edit tricks. It´s funny 20 years ago a TV production with a FX team couldn´t get it done. Anyway, they could solve the situation like in RoboCop 1. There´s a cut when Murphy takes the helmet off in Resurrection, they could put Murphy´s son´s reaction and cut to Fletcher sans chinguard. Weird to see they didn´t go that way if there couldn´t make the CGI version. They just had to take off the chinguard from the suit and film an alternate sequence. Or film the rest of the scene without it. It would make more sense if they were trying to make the chinguard dissappear film the scenes without it. Also, I can see why they didn´t get impressed with these aspects. After all, while writting an existing property you can picture how it´d look. The obvious choice for the writers would be imagine RoboCop with the same make up like the previous incarnations. I would say that the area where the PD team were the most self-critical and disappointed in themselves: they were deeply frustrated with their work on "Crash and Burn." They made a serious mistake where Murphy tells Ann R. Key that "no one dies tonight," but then Ann proceeds to murder several innocent OCP security guards and Murphy tells her, "Nice moves." In the script, Ann's defeats were bloodless, but this was accidentally forgotten in trying to raise some tension in the sequence. No reshoots were possible. I thought that would be a mistake due to rewrites. Strange they´d change the scene, as makes little sense with the whole "my town, my rules" stuff established before. Also, RoboCop makes no effort to make us notice he was pissed from the deaths; he looks like "ey, that was cool" at some point. The team said they appreciated that, but they could only ever see the lost flourishes (jetpack!) and were deeply annoyed by the seemingly endless stairwell. I watched some talks from Julian Grant when he says he did some scenes of both RoboCop and RoboCable fighting on top of the OCP including an helicopter, but weather was pretty bad, thunders and all, and couldn´t continue it. Not sure if he was making that to get a more bigger fact or if they tried something like that. But in the final film I can´t notice something that would suggest a scene like that. They were also irritated by the SAINT set. They found it grimly ironic that the police station had been a large, vast set while the SAINT set was a small, cramped space. Overall the sets looked small. The OCP offices looked pretty small, and no effort to make them look bigger. For example, most of the offices doesn´t have a window. They could trick them to make it bigger with a green screen as a window and then adding a skyline of the city. For the SAINT set, they could trick it with more screens or something to make it less an empty set and more of a high tech room. Even the stairs are pretty small for a big tower like OCP. I wonder if they couldn´t find a bigger scenario for these scenes. They loved the news segments that alternatively portray RoboCop as a hero or a villain using the exact same footage for both versions. They were nervous about the ads selling collector's debris from Cable's death scene and wondered if it were a step too far. Even people who hated PD praised the TV segments, finding them funny and full of satire. :) ----------------------------------- ireactions Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:59 pm ----------------------------------- These are aspects a director should handle. Julian Grant gets a lot of flak. One of Grant's most interesting projects (for me, anyway) was an episode of RELIC HUNTER, "MIA," where the show had fallen behind schedule and barely had the lead actress to film this episode and asked Grant to whip something together quicklike to meet the airdate. The resulting episode was a clip show where the leading lady had been kidnapped and the supporting cast speculate on what enemies from previous episodes might be the culprit. Grant, before he went into academia, seemed to be a director often asked to cobble together projects where financing had hit a loss or shooting days were gone or performers were unavailable... or before the TV rights to a feature film character had expired. These days, superhero fans blow a gasket every time a superhero film heads into reshoots. But listening to the PD team talk about their struggles, I came to understand: it is very easy to see what you want to see in front of a camera lens instead of what is actually there. On most projects, there is a period of review followed by reshoots to amend errors like your cyborg hero being dwarfed by his supporting cast or non-lethal force being employed incorrectly and in contradiction to the narrative or the chinguard being misaligned. Fireworks wouldn't budget for this. One example the PD team gave me: in THE MATRIX, as written and filmed, it's established that Morpheus has previously identified several people whom he thought where The One; every single one of these candidates died fighting Agents. The implication is that Neo could have been misidentified and could die like the others. However, when watching this in the edit bay, the MATRIX creators realized that this made Morpheus seem incompetent to have repeatedly sent potential Ones to their deaths and still seem to think he could find the actual One. With editing and reshoots, this plot element was removed and the dialogue was altered to indicate that Morpheus believed in Neo but the Oracle misleading Neo into thinking Morpheus was wrong. One example I always think of regarding Grant's directing: during the filming of the police confronting RoboCop in Metro Plaza in "Meltdown," the actress who played Sandra Smyles, Ellen Dubin, had a family emergency and was apologetically absent from the second day of filming. The scenes of Murphy confronting her to get information on who in OCP had made him a fugitive had yet to be filmed. And due to the budget, the deadline on filming in a public place and the shooting schedule, Dubin's scene had to be filmed immediately or it wouldn't be filmed at all. On the spot, Grant reworked the scene so that a double in Sandra's coat could be filmed from behind and grabbed by Fletcher and threatened -- and then Dubin returned to record her lines for the double. This is probably a good place to reiterate that RoboFans didn't enjoy the action sequences and the slow motion and the pacing of PRIME DIRECTIVES and that the fans seem to hate the directing most of all in this project. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:14 pm ----------------------------------- Julian Grant gets a lot of flak. Yes, Julian, you sure do. :wink: ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:12 am ----------------------------------- One example I always think of regarding Grant's directing: during the filming of the police confronting RoboCop in Metro Plaza in "Meltdown," the actress who played Sandra Smyles, Ellen Dubin, had a family emergency and was apologetically absent from the second day of filming. The scenes of Murphy confronting her to get information on who in OCP had made him a fugitive had yet to be filmed. And due to the budget, the deadline on filming in a public place and the shooting schedule, Dubin's scene had to be filmed immediately or it wouldn't be filmed at all. On the spot, Grant reworked the scene so that a double in Sandra's coat could be filmed from behind and grabbed by Fletcher and threatened -- and then Dubin returned to record her lines for the double. I had to check that scene and I have to admit it was well done. I didn´t spot the difference. Dubin is in most of it. When RoboCop grabs Smyle and enchange a few words it still looks like she´s Dubin doing the part. It´s almost a close up and you can see half of her face. The next cut had Fletcher on a precise position, hiding the face of Smyles, and you won´t see her face again. I assume that would be the double. But it was executed well, it didn´t felt like these A-Team training montages where you can clearly see there are doubles with wigs doing all the stuff :b As for Grant´s flak, I like the guy. He´s doing interesting little projects right now and he´s a good dude, but when something happens in a movie, the director takes the blaming. He´s the one who has to see every aspect of the production and he´s the one who would say this or that is OK. He approached PD as a western, which clearly shows with some Leone´s inspired shots of close ups before a showdown and the score, so if people doesn´t like it, it was a creative decision by the director. I don´t care about that (I like the score, but I admit I would cut most of the Mexican trumpet solos), and I can blame some decisions on time and budget, but the director takes all the responsability of a project, as he supervises the whole thing. Don´t know if he thought on Fletcher´s size where filming, but I think it could be easily cheated to make him look bigger. ----------------------------------- ireactions Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:11 am ----------------------------------- As for Grant´s flak, I like the guy. He´s doing interesting little projects right now and he´s a good dude, but when something happens in a movie, the director takes the blaming. He´s the one who has to see every aspect of the production and he´s the one who would say this or that is OK. He approached PD as a western, which clearly shows with some Leone´s inspired shots of close ups before a showdown and the score, so if people doesn´t like it, it was a creative decision by the director. I don´t care about that (I like the score, but I admit I would cut most of the Mexican trumpet solos), and I can blame some decisions on time and budget, but the director takes all the responsability of a project, as he supervises the whole thing. Don´t know if he thought on Fletcher´s size where filming, but I think it could be easily cheated to make him look bigger. Recently, the latest X-MEN movie, DARK PHOENIX, bombed at box office. Director Simon Kinberg said in an interview, "I'm here, I'm saying when a movie doesn't work, put it on me. I'm the writer-director, the movie didn't connect with audiences, that's on me." The same should be said of Julian Grant. However, Kinberg also remarked that simply dismissing the film as poor was not constructive and that it was worthwhile to really look at why something didn't work. Which is what I prefer to do when looking at how RoboFans here didn't like PD; rather than write it off with a blanket declaration of poor quality, I'd like to find more specific points of criticism. Most of my criticisms of the PD team's work are ultimately criticisms of the situation that Fireworks Entertainment put them in and therefore a criticism of producers Adam Haight and Jay Firestone. Their attitude to PRIME DIRECTIVES was to set the budget so low that viewership wasn't needed, just selling it to distributors and broadcasters, hence a budget and schedule so starved of resources that archive footage from THE SERIES was needed to finish the series. Once the series was sold, they cut it loose. My criticism of Julian Grant would be -- well, I had the pleasure of him seeing him speak at a local comic book convention before PRIME DIRECTIVES' release and he said, "Make no mistake, this is not a TV show. These are feature films. These are movies." Rewatching PD recently and immediately after rewatching the original film, this is not the case. PRIME DIRECTIVES is clearly a syndicated TV production made for very little time and money and done in the style of a 1970s BBC televised stageplay or a 2000 syndicated sci-fi show. The words may indicate a vast world for Delta City and Old Detroit/the DOCTOR WHO universe/the Macedonian War, but the onscreen events are rendered by 4 - 5 actors in 4-5 windowless rooms discussing events rather than fully depicting them. Archive said once that he thought I was too close to PRIME DIRECTIVES to see it objectively like a man making excuses for a horrible girlfriend. It's possible. But I think it's more likely that when I watch PRIME DIRECTIVES, I watch it the way it was meant to be seen (even if it's not the way Julian Grant meant for it to be seen). When rewatching it on a 55 inch LED screen, I was mentally transported back to my living room when I was 14, watching it on a 24 inch cathode ray tube television where the low backlight, standard definition screen and VHS video quality masked the visual issues. This television set of the late 90s made ROBOCOP (1987) and PRIME DIRECTIVES look to be on the same visual level. On this sort of screen, Murphy's helmetless makeup looks fine, computer generated effects look adequate, slow motion frame skipping action looks fine -- because it's small. Because it's a fuzzy image that, to me in 2001, looked sharp because of the scanlines creating the illusion of detail. It's the same screen on which HERCULES and XENA looked like a vivid rendering of ancient Greece. It's a screen that makes flying effects from SUPERMAN (1977) look plausible. And because the visuals seemed fine, I became compelled by the story and characters and the flaws in visual execution were, to my eyes, acceptable and remain so. I'm sufficiently captivated by Murphy and Cable that I can overlook the flaws because the emotional arcs are so captivating for me. I think Grant was wrong to say that PRIME DIRECTIVES is a film series; it was clearly made for my CRT screen. It's a syndicated TV show made in the tradition of 1970s DOCTOR WHO: a televised stageplay with small number of actors in a small number of rooms (and warehouses and churches). ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:32 am ----------------------------------- Most of my criticisms of the PD team's work are ultimately criticisms of the situation that Fireworks Entertainment put them in and therefore a criticism of producers Adam Haight and Jay Firestone. Their attitude to PRIME DIRECTIVES was to set the budget so low that viewership wasn't needed, just selling it to distributors and broadcasters, hence a budget and schedule so starved of resources that archive footage from THE SERIES was needed to finish the series. Once the series was sold, they cut it loose. Tried to reach Jay Firestone for the RoboSpecial I did, but little luck. No reply at all. I´d be interested to know the recent thoughts from some of the actors (Ellen Dubin tried to get Wint and Davies on board, but no luck either). Fletcher apparently doesn´t have any internet info and it seems he dissappear from the face on Earth after PD. I think PD could be a pretty good TV-Movie project if they had time to have rewrites and money. Think on the production values from The Series on this. I can´t really blame the Robo-Team on this when they didn´t have too many tools to work with. Also, it was made on a different times: O´Brien told me for the magazine that, after Matrix and the reboot of Battlestar Galactica, they would make these way "too sci-fi", cyberpunk elements Fireworks didn´t want on it as people would be used to them thanks to recent science fiction series and films. ----------------------------------- ireactions Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:45 pm ----------------------------------- Going back to trying to see things from the perspective of RoboFans and Archive: I think that if the RoboCop in PRIME DIRECTIVES had been an acceptable rendition to the fans, the rest might have been accepted as well despite the visuals being far below the heights of the 1987 film. From this perspective, PRIME DIRECTIVES seems to take a massive and irreparable hit due to Richard Eden declining to return to the role. Despite the PD team declaring that PRIME DIRECTIVES features Alex Murphy as the lead character as opposed to RoboCop, one can't fail to observe that Richard Eden was clearly their first choice and the actor they first met. And it came down to time. Eden had been injured and humiliated on THE SERIES with no adjustments made for his safety and comfort; he wasn't even granted his own trailer and expected to mime as RoboCop without a mime trainer. To reprise the role, Eden wanted a lot more downtime and preparation between scenes to fully subsume himself into the role without getting hurt or distracted. This couldn't be granted on a 90 day shooting schedule. And I can't help but think: Fireworks simply didn't care about quality. PRIME DIRECTIVES was a mark on a balance sheet, a portfolio item from which to drain some profit from an expiring copyright. A more professional studio, I feel, would have felt that while money is the point, there's no point selling a product that is defective or starved of the resources needed to offer quality and value. A more quality-concerned studio should have been open to being told that the RoboSuit and the actor inside it need time to rehearse more fully to be convincing on camera. That PRIME DIRECTIVES needed five months instead of three, an additional three million on top of the first eight, and then Eden would be able to work his magic and not be maimed at the end of it. And with a little more time and a little more money, Eden might have been able to train a few stunt doubles to move in the suit as well to film all the distance shots and to let Eden focus his craft on the mediums and close-ups. And then the mini series wouldn't be lifting stock footage of cars and explosions from THE SERIES or be unable to afford reshoots for the inevitable oversights and errors that happen in any project's principal photography. And maybe hire a marketing specialist to caution Grant about overselling his syndicated TV show as a quadrilogy of feature films. And license the Poledouris music -- not to hire Basil himself, that'd be unaffordable even on a modest increase -- but to allow a new composer to integrate Poledouris' compositions into a new score. And... That said, the lack of even a Poledouris-reminiscent score (like THE SERIES) is indicative of the PD team's approach at the time where they avoided pastiche and always stepped far, far, far away from trying to imitate other artists even when doing a sequel to a well-known original. It isn't why they didn't work with Eden, of course. Eden said himself in an interview that he didn't return for PRIME DIRECTIVES due to "scheduling issues" and I don't think it was a conflicting project as much as the physical agony he'd have had to put himself through on a 90 day schedule. But the aversion to pastiche is probably why they felt it was alright for Page Fletcher to go his own route with the RoboSuit, a route that judging from this thread clearly does not work for the RoboFans. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:02 pm ----------------------------------- And I can't help but think: Fireworks simply didn't care about quality. PRIME DIRECTIVES was a mark on a balance sheet, a portfolio item from which to drain some profit from an expiring copyright. That was the main problem with PD: it was conceived to milk the franchise before they have to let the character go. And maybe hire a marketing specialist to caution Grant about overselling his syndicated TV show as a quadrilogy of feature films. Well, they´re movies. TV movies. If Grant compared them as a cinematic, theathrical release he would hyped the whole thing way too much. TV movies mean it doesn´t have the same standards as big screen movies. Again, if this was made today, things would look and feel different. Imagine getting them produced for Netflix. Plus, CGI could be more affordable and more convincing now. And license the Poledouris music -- not to hire Basil himself, that'd be unaffordable even on a modest increase -- but to allow a new composer to integrate Poledouris' compositions into a new score. And... I think they wouldn´t have too much trouble to get the rights of the main theme and run with it, letting Orenstein work on a rendition of RoboCop´s march for PD. But: That said, the lack of even a Poledouris-reminiscent score (like THE SERIES) is indicative of the PD team's approach at the time where they avoided pastiche and always stepped far, far, far away from trying to imitate other artists even when doing a sequel to a well-known original. They wanted to go with a different approach. And I really give them credit for trying. Yes, it´s low budget. Yes, it has many errors. But I like seeing something that tries to move foward and explore something different than just stick with the sequel´s estructures. And even with all these low quality and aspects hated by fans, the human core of the story would work fine giving them time and money. The problem with the character is that, even with all the love the Robofans have for him, he´s pretty much done in the first film. Murphy dies, became RoboCop and gets his killers. He calls himself "Murphy" in the last second, smiles. The End. How do you continue with the franchise after that? ----------------------------------- ireactions Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:48 pm ----------------------------------- The problem with the character is that, even with all the love the Robofans have for him, he´s pretty much done in the first film. Murphy dies, became RoboCop and gets his killers. He calls himself "Murphy" in the last second, smiles. The End. How do you continue with the franchise after that? To me, PRIME DIRECTIVES is really special because the Murphy/James relationship and the reconciliation between father and son is something the original film couldn't address. It makes perfect use of the time gap between 1987 and 2000. It's something only a sequel could do. But clearly, the fans on this board couldn't connect with this character arc because they didn't recognize PD's version of RoboCop as their hero and they were bored by all the OCP antics and disengaged from James' storyline. I think the story is pretty solid; even peculiarities like the total refusal to offer a technobabble explanation for how LEGION infects both machinery and human beings is, to me, a cheerful level of absurdity. But the visual realization and various glitches and the stylistic choices rub fans the wrong way. They wanted to go with a different approach. And I really give them credit for trying. Yes, it´s low budget. Yes, it has many errors. But I like seeing something that tries to move foward and explore something different than just stick with the sequel´s estructures. And even with all these low quality and aspects hated by fans, the human core of the story would work fine giving them time and money. I feel that PRIME DIRECTIVES didn't think of the fans. I don't mean to say that the team behind PD were in any way hostile towards the fans; I mean that their creative process was never designed to ask what the fans would want to see and how PD could address those wants. They were primarily horror creators and I find that horror has a fundamentally adversarial relationship with the audience, designed to shock and disturb. The PD team prized creating things that were challenging and something of a struggle for the audience to endure. They didn't think in terms of creating anything comforting or familiar which leads to decisions like not requiring their lead actor to study Peter Weller. That's the horror approach and why the PD team described RoboCop as "the electric Frankenstein's monster." And I don't think that's how RoboFans see RoboCop; I think to the fans, RoboCop is a superhero character. Superheroes exist to impress with their amazing powers, to serve as characters we want to imagine ourselves inhabiting, and to reassure us that they're the same character no matter who might play them. I think a good number of us would like to imagine being invulnerable to gunfire and having a tracking system and having an impressive suit of high tech combat armour and being able to attach a machine gun with a flame thrower to our arm gauntlets. That isn't how PD saw RoboCop; they saw him as a twisted, abused victim of violence, a manmade freak of artificiality desperately trying to reconcile his humanity with his mechanization. To PD, RoboCop is not a figure to imagine yourself being; nobody should ever want to be shot in the head, to have their limbs severed, to have a computer core smashed into their skull, to exist as a bundle of severed nerve endings and a face and torso kept functioning in a suit that approximates some semblance of life. Which was also why they constantly had him beaten in every single fight in PD and barely survive. The fact that fans would be upset to see their hero repeatedly lose; the fact that fans want to see RoboCop being "determined and cool," as Archive puts it, just wasn't a consideration as much as executing this vision. To the general audience, this seemed fine judging from the (somewhat scant) reviews at the time. To the fans, this was a disaster. This isn't what they wanted to see. The horror approach was intrinsically mismatched to the wishes of the fanbase. ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:29 pm ----------------------------------- The fact that fans would be upset to see their hero repeatedly lose; the fact that fans want to see RoboCop being "determined and cool," as Archive puts it, just wasn't a consideration as much as executing this vision. It's pretty tone deaf from the PD writers to be honest. Robo being such a looser is a big part of why most fans hate Robo3 and the series. In Robo3 he spends most of the time on the floor, defeated, and in the series Robo gets torn apart and blown up in essentially every episode. They must have known about that, still they repeated this looser trend in PD which to me was incredibly frustrating. (That said, PD does include some gun fights where Robo actually shoots plenty of random masked henchmen so it's not all bad.) ----------------------------------- Stan The Man Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:34 pm ----------------------------------- That said, the lack of even a Poledouris-reminiscent score (like THE SERIES) is indicative of the PD team's approach... I don't care to belabor all the specific criticisms of PD but one I'll give ya here and now - It's music. There was a time I actually thought it was neat, but after listening to it again and hearing all those drawn out Western-ish pangs it just seems all dreary and laboring and just plain depressing. Doesn't fit Robo at all. Like Chanood the Mexican trumpets are too much and it just feels like such a damn downer to listen to, not sharp and bold like the original. This I think the Series got better - Gillis' music felt if not optimistic than certainly not so defeatist feeling. Robo's music as Basil made it has a constant sense of redeeming strength and a bit of reflective and bittersweet hope, and again I think the '94 series - while if at times went a bit corny and overboard on the heroic aspect - kept the essence of Poledouris' music. PD doesn't, and it's one of a multitude of things that just makes it tedious to view. I too give it credit for being something different, certainly - but just being different isn't enough. They wanted to go with a different approach. And I really give them credit for trying. Yes, it´s low budget. Yes, it has many errors. But I like seeing something that tries to move foward and explore something different than just stick with the sequel´s estructures. And even with all these low quality and aspects hated by fans, the human core of the story would work fine giving them time and money. I feel the same. While I think PD is a load of crap that isn't to say I don't think it couldn't have been. There are parts in PD I do enjoy - The flashback of pre-Robo Murphy, and even seeing him interact with his now adult son is a nice element to an extent, yes. I concede it's hard not to be harsh with anything Robo, since as it's been said it's a story that's essentially all one-and-done and so nowhere to go really. Not without changing something considerable. In this regard I really like the idea of PD conceptually, and do agree it or something like it can be done and be something quite good or at least interesting if it had real TLC done to it. In retrospect that was not going to be the case with PD. Still, as has also been said, that doesn't mean we have to swallow PD up and go for dessert. That's the horror approach and why the PD team described RoboCop as "the electric Frankenstein's monster." And I don't think that's how RoboFans see RoboCop; I think to the fans, RoboCop is a superhero character. He has elements of both but I don't really see Robo as firmly either of those, personally. He doesn't fit majorly into any one simple category like that, he never can be so simply classified. And with that I echo some sentiments that have been made that perhaps they didn't really understand the complexity of the character. They tried, I'm sure they wanted to, but well, again, judging what we see just seems to fall short. Even if they did I agree their 'approach' wouldn't have jived with it regardless. Which is a failure in itself - They indeed seemed to have given more energy to putting their 'stamp' on the character and franchise rather than investigating Robo properly and building off that - something fans do and would accordingly respond to. As Archive said we've seen Robo be a suck-ass weakling already, and that clearly isn't well received so maybe it's time to try something else. Doesn't have to necessarily go back to Robo effortlessly blowing away baddies until a bigger badder robot comes along either, but, eh something. Anyway with PD it always goes back to a feeling of not caring - whether intentional or not - throughout the whole project. That 'tone deafness' as Archive said, is something that doomed it from the get-go I'm afraid. It's something I felt in regards to Darren Aronofsky back during his brush with Robo, which is why I was one of those that was considerably skeptical about his involvement being a good thing. And I can't help but think: Fireworks simply didn't care about quality. PRIME DIRECTIVES was a mark on a balance sheet, a portfolio item from which to drain some profit from an expiring copyright. A more professional studio, I feel, would have felt that while money is the point, there's no point selling a product that is defective or starved of the resources needed to offer quality and value. Well that's pretty much it, frankly. End of the day we can only judge what's on the screen and all the what ifs and what the director/writer/actors/production house wanted is ultimately irrelevant. Of any of the excuses and and rationales the point of keeping in mind to remember the show in the context of when it aired is a good one, because yes TV quality was markedly different then then it has been since. Even then though, there's plenty of issues it has regardless of that, all of which again have been labored over plenty here, and again, none of which I care to belabor further. PD is fail. Not all of it, mind you, but generally it is. I wish it wasn't, and can see how it could have been otherwise, but still, well, there it is. ----------------------------------- ireactions Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:30 pm ----------------------------------- It's pretty tone deaf from the PD writers to be honest. Robo being such a looser is a big part of why most fans hate Robo3 and the series. In Robo3 he spends most of the time on the floor, defeated, and in the series Robo gets torn apart and blown up in essentially every episode. They must have known about that, still they repeated this looser trend in PD which to me was incredibly frustrating. (That said, PD does include some gun fights where Robo actually shoots plenty of random masked henchmen so it's not all bad.) Looking back at PD now, and trying to see it from the RoboFan perspective -- if I could go back in time, I would have probably had one very specific piece of advice for the PD team and it would be: listen to the fans. Listening doesn't mean obeying. It just means being engaged with what your audience wants (and in this case, you guys were the only audience) and giving it due consideration. Market research has its place. If I'd been in charge (and naturally, I should have been at age FOURTEEN) -- I would have suggested that the PD team hire Archive as a consulting producer (and made him sign a 200 page nondisclosure agreement). This is backseat driving at its worst to say this, and I'm certainly not saying that the PD team should have given Archive veto privileges over casting and production. But the PD team could have asked him: What are the defining aspects of RoboCop that fans need to accept a new actor in the role? What are the most critical elements to present in Delta City/Detroit? What plot and scene elements within these four screenplays rub you the wrong way and offend you as a diehard fan? What aspects of these scripts please you and are things you'd want more of? And then they could see what aspects of the material could be modified within the eight million and the 90 days and without compromising their overall vision. If Archive said that all the scenes of Riveting OCP Boardroom Action were a snore, they probably wouldn't have been able to change that given how syndicated TV worked at the time. But if Archive had said it was really upsetting to see RoboCop get his ass whipped at the start of "Dark Justice" and at the start of "Meltdown" and at the end of "Meltdown" and for most of "Crash and Burn," this could probably have been amended: RoboCop doesn't just shoot down one of Da Bombz terrorists; he defeats ten of them and it's only failing to stop Bone Machine from detonating the leader that knocks RoboCop back. RoboCop defeats Lexx Icon and Abby Normal and Ann R. Key but they're able to trigger the building defense system to prevent him from capturing them in their escape. RoboCop is beaten down hard by Cable and the RoboHunters, but when Cable switches to his side, then RoboCop wins the fight. And so forth. It would have also been worthwhile to have flown Archive in have him on set to advise that Page Fletcher (or whoever they would have cast) have a milk crate or something to stand on. And then Archive could have come along as well to all those splendid lunches we all had together and we could have taken turns posing for photos with Alex Murphy's headstone and joined in the failed effort to steal one of the Robo Helmets before it got sent back to Rob Bottin. God knows what would have happened to this site, though. ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:02 pm ----------------------------------- Ha-ha, of course this was 19 years ago, and things were a bit different then in a lot of ways. We were all different people. The archive site was different. PD was a creation of its time as pointed out previously in this topic. The matrix influences dates it and if made now it would have been a completely different beast with different inspirations. I never considered me to be the biggest Robo fans. I'm not by a long shot. There are many fine fellows out there with a much bigger passion for the character but the problem here is that every fan sees things differently. There are fans who only like Robo1, while others think the third movie is the best. (!!!) For many years i thought Robo2 was the best of the three. I mean I really like the Bonemachine characters while most hate him so my consulted version of PD would probably not have been much better. :) That said, the writers did spend a lot of time with fans on a newsgroup forum and discussed a lot of things around the character, but at this point i believe it was all mostly filmed. At the time i felt they got it, they understood the character, but upon seeing the final product i was confused by problems and mistakes done by previous incarnations that was repeated in PD. Adding another (annoying) young girl kid after Robo3 and the series had already done that was a peculiar move. Robo holding hands and having heartwarming chats with a kid isn't ever something fans want to see. I was invited to visit the PD set in Toronto at one point but my current situation with work, money and me living in Sweden, it wasn't really an option. Though i really appreciated the offer and opportunity. The PD team were all extremely friendly and whenever i talk "trash" about PD it always makes me feel a little guilty. :) ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:14 pm ----------------------------------- I'm like 95% ireactions is Julian Grant at this point... either that or his spouse or someone really close. How else would someone have an encyclopedic knowledge of the entire making of Robocop PD? It seems for every criticism lobbed, ireactions has an insider story to excuse the questionable behavior, from their varying inspirations to the specifics of the shooting schedule. That alone would indicate ireactions had a direct hand in the production of PD. But there is something else. I have never seen someone bend over backwards so much to explain the flaws of something... except when I'm defending my own music! That level of passion seems to me something one could only have for their own work. Fans can get very worked up about the stuff they love, I've certainly gone on long rants defending Robocop 2 or 3 but even I had to admit their faults. And PD is a steep drop in quality from Robocop 2 and even 3. So what else would drive someone to join a site like this and comment nearly exclusively about PD, with every post adamantly deflecting criticism towards the Robofans for not not getting what we wanted and defending any and every other aspect of the production with a detailed behind the scenes excuse? It just doesn't add up... ----------------------------------- ireactions Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:16 pm ----------------------------------- Ha-ha, of course this was 19 years ago, and things were a bit different then in a lot of ways. We were all different people. The archive site was different. PD was a creation of its time as pointed out previously in this topic. The matrix influences dates it and if made now it would have been a completely different beast with different inspirations. I never considered me to be the biggest Robo fans. I'm not by a long shot. There are many fine fellows out there with a much bigger passion for the character but the problem here is that every fan sees things differently. There are fans who only like Robo1, while others think the third movie is the best. (!!!) For many years i thought Robo2 was the best of the three. I mean I really like the Bonemachine characters while most hate him so my consulted version of PD would probably not have been much better. :) Well, I will say this -- after PD, there was a period when the PD team would send me scripts for their subsequent projects (superhero films, vampire movies) or artwork for comics they were working on (horror, horror and for variety, some horror) and ask for my thoughts. I'd send along my feedback and sometimes, they'd thank me for my thoughts and move on, and sometimes, I'd notice that subsequent drafts showed that dialogue had been amended and scene descriptions were adjusted and plot elements were moved around in direct response to my thoughts. I was sixteen and wasn't (and haven't) become a screenwriter except in the most amateur sense (I've written 10 fanfics in screenplay format), but they were always happy to integrate advice that served their vision and politely disregard that which didn't. I was always impressed at how they were sending material to a child for feedback. They were happy to take useful criticism where they found it whether it came from a teenager or whether it would have come from, well, you. They should have asked you. Eventually, I got busy with college and the PD team were going their separate routes with some staying in Toronto and some relocating to the States, but I still follow their careers and attend local premieres of their work and send them messages, but I am no longer a teenager and they have actual children of their own to raise. That said, the writers did spend a lot of time with fans on a newsgroup forum and discussed a lot of things around the character, but at this point i believe it was all mostly filmed. At the time i felt they got it, they understood the character, but upon seeing the final product i was confused by problems and mistakes done by previous incarnations that was repeated in PD. Adding another (annoying) young girl kid after Robo3 and the series had already done that was a peculiar move. Robo holding hands and having heartwarming chats with a kid isn't ever something fans want to see. I was invited to visit the PD set in Toronto at one point but my current situation with work, money and me living in Sweden, it wasn't really an option. Though i really appreciated the offer and opportunity. The PD team were all extremely friendly and whenever i talk "trash" about PD it always makes me feel a little guilty. :) Clearly a massive error in judgement. They should have flown you in for 3 - 4 meetings well before even pre-production began to read the scripts and offer casting thoughts, then flown you in to observe filming first for "Dark Justice" and then to comment on footage for the middle chapters and observe the filming of "Crash and Burn" and they should have put you up in a hotel and paid you a solid fee for your consultation and weeks of labour and also provided you with a chit for transport and full access to crafts services for your meals. I feel that you were really the missing ingredient in the team and if you'd been around, I bet we'd have successfully stolen the Robo Helmet AND gotten a few of those Auto-9s as well, although they would likely have likely given the guns back as this is Canada and guns are frowned upon. Also, there would have been a lengthy debate as who got to keep the Robo Helmet and I suppose we would have taken turns wearing it and then returned it as well assuming nobody got stuck in it. ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:25 pm ----------------------------------- They should have flown you in for 3 - 4 meetings well before even pre-production began to read the scripts and offer casting thoughts, then flown you in to observe filming first for "Dark Justice" and then to comment on footage for the middle chapters and observe the filming of "Crash and Burn" and they should have put you up in a hotel and paid you a solid fee for your consultation and weeks of labour and also provided you with a chit for transport and full access to crafts services for your meals. Ha-ha I mean yeah of course, but that is like half the budget of PD right there. :lol: ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:57 am ----------------------------------- Looking back at PD now, and trying to see it from the RoboFan perspective -- if I could go back in time, I would have probably had one very specific piece of advice for the PD team and it would be: listen to the fans. It´d be hard to listen to the fans and not compromising the idea you have in mind. Also... That said, the writers did spend a lot of time with fans on a newsgroup forum and discussed a lot of things around the character, but at this point i believe it was all mostly filmed. I wasn´t there when that happened, and that´s a nice touch from them to hang out. They spent time they couldn´t skip to the fans. Yes, it´s a cheap promotional tactic, as you get talks and stuff from the miniseries for free, but I bet it was exciting back in the day to have the crew hanging out here. Hell, this board was the official one for PD! They´d even greet people to visit the sets. That´s a cool move. This is backseat driving at its worst to say this, and I'm certainly not saying that the PD team should have given Archive veto privileges over casting and production. I don´t have anything against Archive (after all we´re talking about RoboCop thanks to him!), but what I said earlier. While most of us agree in some basic aspects, each fan has his own take of the character, and when you have a specific (and risky) take like this, fan interaction would change it drastically. Also, if the main problems with the miniseries were money and budget, having Archive there wouldn´t prevent Fletcher for moving that way (since they still wouldn´t have time or money to have a body movement couch and develop the classic moves) or looking that way without the helmet (bucks and time again). I'm like 95% ireactions is Julian Grant at this point... either that or his spouse or someone really close. How else would someone have an encyclopedic knowledge of the entire making of Robocop PD? Well, he could be a fan. I had access to some behind the scenes stuff and such, thanks to the fact that Robo-Team was friendly enough. Easy to interview and eager to talk, plus I developed some kind of friendship with one of the writers (I helped with some of his projects, he collaborates on some of mine). I´m curious about how movies are made (that´s why I have a magazine dedicated to scifi, and why I wanted to have people from the RoboFranchise back in 2017), specially these which don´t have unlimited resources. Knowing secrets from a Marvel movie would be a pain in the ass, since they have a legion of CGI nerds creating digital Robert Downey Jr., but when you don´t have all of these I´d like to know how you can get away with stuff. I believe ireactions can be just a fan, as the crew are regular guys and not divas. Plus, he was kinda young back in the day, so (like me) he was kinda hooked having back a mature, blood driven RoboCop product. That isn't how PD saw RoboCop; they saw him as a twisted, abused victim of violence, a manmade freak of artificiality desperately trying to reconcile his humanity with his mechanization. That´s good to me! Which was also why they constantly had him beaten in every single fight in PD and barely survive. The fact that fans would be upset to see their hero repeatedly lose; the fact that fans want to see RoboCop being "determined and cool," as Archive puts it, just wasn't a consideration as much as executing this vision. That´s not good to me! :b While you can´t make a invulnerable character (he loses his appeal) you´d need some satisfaction at some point, specially if you´re spending 8 hours dedicated to a character. That´s one of the letdowns of PD to me: he´s constant of losing fights and getting almost dead. He´s beaten every chance he´s there, which makes that Damian quote a little bit absurd. He tells RoboCops has been torn to pieces but he still going and going. RoboCop is the star of "Dark Justice", for example. He´s beaten in the begining, but gets a payback at the end of the episode (with the dataspike!). Gratifying. Then, for the rest of the miniseries, he becomes a secondary character. "Meltdown" follow the same beats of the first one: he makes an appereance, cool, and then he´s on the floor, no energy, and he shuts down. I like that moment where he stills want to arrest them on the floor, taking his Auto-9, but we already had a scene like that in the previous one, at the same point of the story. Most of the action focused on RoboCable (he takes the Robohunters in both "Meltdown" and "Resurrection"), while RoboCop is battle damaged. I´d make RoboCop more heroic and thriumphant parts II and III, to have it almost destroyed on "Crash & Burn", so it´d be more balanced. I think the first draws didn´t have these kind of elements. Yes, he spends most of part 3 on limbo, but I think I remember him winning and fighting more. Maybe they had to change that due to time/budget as well? ----------------------------------- ireactions Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:08 pm ----------------------------------- It´d be hard to listen to the fans and not compromising the idea you have in mind. I don´t have anything against Archive (after all we´re talking about RoboCop thanks to him!), but what I said earlier. While most of us agree in some basic aspects, each fan has his own take of the character, and when you have a specific (and risky) take like this, fan interaction would change it drastically. Well, as I said, listening does not mean obeying. It just means taking the audience's wishes into consideration and using expectations as a tool whether it's to meet them, surprise them or subvert them. I don't see Archive as the biggest fan of RoboCop. I see Archive as the average RoboFan. I think if you added up everyone's likes and dislikes and divided them into an average common consensus, you'd get Archive. If Archive had been hired to join the PD team as a consultant, I think his contributions would have been very helpful even within the situation that Fireworks created. And I imagine Archive's room and board and labour would have cost maybe the salary of one and a half of the Mandys. Also, if the main problems with the miniseries were money and budget, having Archive there wouldn´t prevent Fletcher for moving that way (since they still wouldn´t have time or money to have a body movement couch and develop the classic moves) or looking that way without the helmet (bucks and time again). Well, in this dream scenario, Archive would have been present before Fletcher were even cast and Archive would have, ideally, shared his personal opinion: whoever plays RoboCop needs to be a natural mime artist who mimics Peter Weller as a foundation for the rest of the performance and have either the height to tower over supporting cast members or an apparatus to create the illusion of being taller than everyone who isn't a villain. They may have taken his advice; they may have cast Fletcher anyway and just made sure to get some milk crates for him to stand on.. I'm like 95% ireactions is Julian Grant at this point... either that or his spouse or someone really close. How else would someone have an encyclopedic knowledge of the entire making of Robocop PD? Well, he could be a fan. I had access to some behind the scenes stuff and such, thanks to the fact that Robo-Team was friendly enough. Easy to interview and eager to talk, plus I developed some kind of friendship with one of the writers (I helped with some of his projects, he collaborates on some of mine). When I was a teenager, the PD team would send me scripts for subsequent projects and were essentially asking for advice on their professional careers from a child who hadn't even finished high school. And to comment whether or not fan input would have interfered with their vision and on your later point on RoboCop spending most of PRIME DIRECTIVES taking a beating: While you can´t make a invulnerable character (he loses his appeal) you´d need some satisfaction at some point, specially if you´re spending 8 hours dedicated to a character. That´s one of the letdowns of PD to me: he´s constant of losing fights and getting almost dead. This is something I noted in some of the PD team's later scripts as well: they constantly had their heroes in their screenplays getting relentlessly beaten in every single scene, often because the plot necessitated that the villain be making steady progress towards their endgame with the stakes getting higher and the audience unsure how the heroes could win given that they seemed to lose every round. I commented at one point that there's Luke being horribly underequipped to face Vader in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. There's RoboCop in the 1987 movie, seemingly invincible until ED-209 hits him so hard his visor is broken and you see his exposed eye and a frightening sense of vulnerability. And then there's RoboCop losing every fight in PD to the point where you could be forgiven for wondering if RoboCop is just a terrible police officer who should be taken off the streets as a danger to himself and others. The PD team would never change their vision to accommodate my emails; they were not in any way dependent on my approval or disapproval. But they would sometimes send me subsequent drafts of their projects where they'd made little tweaks in this area. The story was the same, the plot was unchanged, but heroes came out of the fights a little differently. In some scenes, the villain would now escape by threatening civilians or creating distance so that the hero couldn't get to the villain. Or the fight would be a tie. Or the hero would win the fight but lose the MacGuffin. Or the defeats would remain, but a subsequent fight scene would have the hero win more definitively to make up for it. These weren't big changes that diluted their vision; these were small little revisions and if they were willing to do that in response to emails from a high school student struggling through calculus, I imagine they would have done the same in response to any constructive criticism from Archive... if they'd asked him before PRIME DIRECTIVES was written, filmed and edited. I think the first draws didn´t have these kind of elements. Yes, he spends most of part 3 on limbo, but I think I remember him winning and fighting more. Maybe they had to change that due to time/budget as well? The PD team felt very strongly about RoboCop losing every fight. (WRITER #1: "Hey, how many fights does Murphy get into throughout this thing?" WRITER #2: "A lot." WRITER #1: "How many does he win?" WRITER #2: "Uh. None. I think that's our theme. He gets beaten and blown up over and over and he just keeps going and going and going. It's going to be great!") I think this was part of how they saw RoboCop; they saw him as Murphy, as a victim, as someone on the losing end of life whose heroism was to survive fights as opposed to winning them. ... I don't think this worked. Hindsight is 20/20, but having looked at the creative process on this project and the values and directions that propelled PRIME DIRECTIVES, I really feel that the PD team should have found an average fan to join the team and offer an average fan perspective -- such as the view that RoboCop getting hammered into the dirt for four movies would be depressing for the fans, and the creators could accept or reject that view as they saw fit. I really do not see how their overall vision of PD would have been compromised by having RoboCop defeat Da Bomz with a combination of gunfire and hand-to-hand before Bone Machine comes in. It would have worked just fine if RoboCop also beat the cyberpunk ladies and the RoboHunters in several rounds and then RoboCable comes in and smashes RoboCop into walls but then teams up with RoboCop against the hunters and both win. And if RoboCop were more competent for the first three installments, his being on the losing side in "Crash and Burn" would have been as disturbing as ED-209 taking down RoboCop with such ease in the first film. And, judging from how the PD team were happy to consider my thoughts on their later projects, they would likely have been open to Archive's suggestions as well during the PD writing process had he been asked for it at the time. Would they have followed every single piece of advice? No. But would they have thought about it heavily? I think so. Archive should have been hired to join the PD team. Oh, Archive. Where were you when they needed you? He was here. Right here. All they ever had to do was call. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:49 pm ----------------------------------- This is something I noted in some of the PD team's later scripts as well: they constantly had their heroes in their screenplays getting relentlessly beaten in every single scene, often because the plot necessitated that the villain be making steady progress towards their endgame with the stakes getting higher and the audience unsure how the heroes could win given that they seemed to lose every round. At least one of them roots for the underdog. Which is not a bad thing, but if you don´t balance it, the character becomes weak. Even in films like The Dark Knight Rises (which also has it´s haters) you can put the main character on a fragile situation, but it ends saving the World (or at least the city) in the last second. In "Crash & Burn", Cable is the hero. Murphy just happends to be there. Yes, he tries to stop the whole thing, but it´s again Cable who sacrifices himself and saves the day. Don´t get me wrong, having Cable doing his own redemption is cool, but the main character of the miniseries ends being a secondary character in the story. And then there's RoboCop losing every fight in PD to the point where you could be forgiven for wondering if RoboCop is just a terrible police officer who should be taken off the streets as a danger to himself and others. If you overthink stuff like RoboFans do, remember the end of "Crash & Burn": he walks on a powerless city, alone, to fight crime. When you see he gets defeated so easily, you can feel sorry for Murphy. The heroic theme you should get from that last scene vanishes if you think about it. Again, you need to balance it. I think this was part of how they saw RoboCop; they saw him as Murphy, as a victim, as someone on the losing end of life whose heroism was to survive fights as opposed to winning them. As an almost obsolete cyborg as they were trying to portray it it could work, but again the stuff I said some lines above this. Maybe if he didn´t need to be saved it´d look more touching? I mean, if he didn´t have anyone surrounding him while maltfunctioning, having Murphy survive by himself, low on energy or whatever, maybe it wouldn´t look that bad. In "Dark Justice" he gets some beating; he´s assisted by the cops (I´m ok with this); in "Meltdown", similar beating, Hobley assists him (using the same "how many fingers" joke which would appear later), later Cable assists him; in "Resurrection" he gets rescued by Ann and her pals; and in "Crash & Burn" is his son. ----------------------------------- Archive Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:03 pm ----------------------------------- And then there's RoboCop losing every fight in PD to the point where you could be forgiven for wondering if RoboCop is just a terrible police officer who should be taken off the streets as a danger to himself and others. In the series Robo would often just stand still not doing anything and let a truck or a snowplow run over him. He would wait, gun in hand, for the enemy to aim whatever weapon and just get blasted. In Robo3 if anyone even touches Robo it feels like he is about to fall on the ground. Even on the Robo3 commentary Dekker comments that "..and there he is on the floor again!" Similarly in PD i feel that it was ok to get beaten by Bonemachine but when Robo can't even defeat three female tech thieves it is perhaps time to hand in your badge. His days of raiding drug factories full of bad guys are over. remember the end of "Crash & Burn": he walks on a powerless city, alone, to fight crime. When you see he gets defeated so easily, you can feel sorry for Murphy. The heroic theme you should get from that last scene vanishes if you think about it. Again, you need to balance it. Ha-ha yes. :lol: ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:15 pm ----------------------------------- Similarly in PD i feel that it was ok to get beaten by Bonemachine but when Robo can't even defeat three female tech thieves it is perhaps time to hand in your badge. His days of raiding drug factories full of bad guys are over. Well, after all Bone Machine had bigger firepower than him. I think the problem for me is the thieves. It should be made in a different way to avoid being compared to the first chapter. Both movies starts the same way: he has a cool entrance (the foot, or crashing into the building), which could get people excited for watching Robo, and a few minutes after one hit he´s useless. ----------------------------------- ireactions Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:56 pm ----------------------------------- when Robo can't even defeat three female tech thieves it is perhaps time to hand in your badge. His days of raiding drug factories full of bad guys are over. I think the problem for me is the thieves. It should be made in a different way to avoid being compared to the first chapter. Both movies starts the same way: he has a cool entrance (the foot, or crashing into the building), which could get people excited for watching Robo, and a few minutes after one hit he´s useless. In later scripts after PD, the writers seemed quite happy to make little adjustments to avert this aspect of their work. In time, this aspect of their writing disappeared from even early drafts and I guess they outgrew the need for a snotty kid to point it out to them. I can easily see them performing some small alterations to "Dark Justice" where Murphy shoots down a member of Da Bomz, charges into the bank. They threaten the hostages; Murphy's targeting system easily dispatches them with calculated ricochets and shooting through clothing killing the terrorists without harming a single innocent. The hostages run. Only the leader and his bomb vest remain. Then Bone Machine charges in and fires on Murphy. Murphy steps backward, rattled, fires a shot that disables the Bone Machine's gun. Bone Machine grabs the leader of Da Bombz, sets off his vest and throws him. The vest explodes in mid-air, caving in the ceiling. Cut to outside: the cops run in and find Murphy blocked from the back exit by the collapsed wall. Murphy still won, Bone Machine still escaped, the plot remains unchanged. Or in "Meltdown," Ann R. Key knocks RoboCop backwards with her laser staff and behind Hobley's desk. She stands, satisfied -- and then Hobley's DESK COMES FLYING AT ANN and she dives for cover as Murphy marches forward, Auto-9 blazing -- only for Lexx Icon and Abby Normal to trigger the OCP building defense system to create a wall of laser fire between Murphy and Ann. Murphy cannot reach her. Ann, bloody and recovering her staff, limps away from Murphy and says she'll see him again for a rematch. The cyberpunk ladies still escape. The plot remains unchanged. Otherwise, as Archive puts it hilariously, it really does seem like Murphy wouldn't have been able to handle the drug factory raid in 1987 or even the convenience store mugger. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:18 pm ----------------------------------- I can easily see them performing some small alterations to "Dark Justice" where Murphy shoots down a member of Da Bomz, charges into the bank. I´m sure changes were done due to budget/time. I remember the draft I read had RoboCop entering the building and taking some of The Bombz on a long corridor, before going to the leader. They also tried to get CGI ED-209 for "Resurrection", but didn´t have the rights. ----------------------------------- ireactions Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:06 pm ----------------------------------- It occurs to me that both "Dark Justice" and "Meltdown" have Murphy being reprimanded by Dr. Frost for overtaxing his systems after the first fights in both. And both times, Frost describes how Murphy's replacement parts are hard to find or not even manufactured anymore. Maybe, in this rewritten version where Murphy trounces Da Bombz, Bone Machine uses the explosive vest to cave in the ceiling on Murphy and when the police get in, they find that Murphy is just finished digging himself out. And Dr. Frost says that this effort fused half of his arm rotors and that she'll have to jury rig his entire skeletal structure. And maybe, in this imagined version of "Meltdown," the cybertech thieves create a wall of lasers and Murphy doggedly tries to walk through them and gets burnt and retreats. So we still keep the scenes of Dr. Frost commenting on the difficulties of maintaining RoboCop, but we don't have RoboCop lying flat on the floor repeatedly. They also tried to get CGI ED-209 for "Resurrection", but didn´t have the rights. Interesting. In the unpublished novelization, there's a scene where Cable goes to the weapons depot to track down the Bone Machine weaponry and it's guarded by an ED-209. Cable immediately prepares to reverse the car and speed away in case ED malfunctions as they're only ever assigned to guard facilities with little to no human interaction and tend to malfunction at the slightest provocation and braces himself to flee as ED-209 reviews his credentials. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:37 pm ----------------------------------- Interesting. In the unpublished novelization, there's a scene where Cable goes to the weapons depot to track down the Bone Machine weaponry and it's guarded by an ED-209. Cable immediately prepares to reverse the car and speed away in case ED malfunctions as they're only ever assigned to guard facilities with little to no human interaction and tend to malfunction at the slightest provocation and braces himself to flee as ED-209 reviews his credentials. In the draft I read, when they go to the Trust basement there was an old ED-209 with a funny signal hanging from one of his arms. ----------------------------------- ireactions Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:14 pm ----------------------------------- Another anecdote from my memories of reading the scripts and reading the unpublished novelization: I find it interesting that the PD team and the fans are happiest/least offended by "Dark Justice." For me, "Dark Justice" is weak and I say that as someone who enjoyed PRIME DIRECTIVES when rewatching it recently (although I found that the optimal viewing method for PRIME DIRECTIVES was to rip the DVDs to MP4 and copy the files to a low resolution iPad from 2010). I felt that "Dark Justice" meandered with an aimless and pointless investigation into the Bone Machine identity. I couldn't understand WHY there was all this mystery around his true identity; he was just a random guest-star and a character with no significant relationship to Cable and Murphy whatsoever. Also, the Motor City Mangler flashback sequence seemed totally divorced from the purposeless search for the real name and face of the Bone Machine. It was only when reading the original shooting scripts that I realized the problem. "Dark Justice" deliberately has Cable walk away from Da Bombz situation and then Bone Machine appears. The script makes it very clear that the Bone Machine costume obscures the wearer's identity and the man underneath the suit cannot be identified. The implication is that John Cable is Bone Machine. This results in severe tension between Murphy and Cable in their later scenes; Murphy suspects that his old friend has become a crazy supervillain, Cable's caustic attitude to Murphy suggests that Cable is indeed the villain. And there's the sense that Murphy is deliberately setting a trap for Cable in handing over evidence that the Bone Machine is a renegade police officer. When Cable says that the Bone Machine is a cop taking the law into his own hands, Murphy says, "It happens," subtly accusing Cable. When Murphy remarks on Cable's good reputation, the flashbacks become relevant: the viewer is intended to watch the younger Cable and look for clues that he may be Bone Machine and his murder of the Motor City Mangler, taking the law into his own hands, is meant to seemingly confirm this. "Dark Justice" is predicated entirely on the possibility that the villain is Murphy's old friend EXCEPT THE BONE MACHINE COSTUME EXPOSES THE WEARER'S FACE AND IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT MAURICE DEAN WINT IN THE SUIT WHY WHY WHY? As a result, there is absolutely no tension between Cable and Murphy over their manhunt and no suspense over the identity of Bone Machine. "Dark Justice" was terribly boring for me despite some fine moments of characterization and the loss of this dramatic weight explains why (at least for me). I asked the PD team about this after reading the scripts and the response was a low, quiet groan and a grim explanation that the Bone Machine costume had proven out of step with the script but with the rushed shooting schedule, they were forced to film the scenes with the costume they had. Later, when reading the novelization, I noticed that the Motor City Mangler was also different. In the aired version, he's a cannibal. In the novelization, he's a child murderer. I noted that this was far more insidious and true to life than a cannibal. The PD team said that as originally conceived, the Mangler was a child murderer, but Fireworks Entertainment balked at such savage content and demanded a different crime. The PD team contemplated various crimes for which the Mangler would deserve for Cable to execute him. Could he be a counterfeiter or someone who didn't rewind VHS cassettes before returning them to the rental? Could he be an overly aggressive driver? An obnoxious message board poster? A talker during movies at the theatre? They made him a cannibal. They felt somewhat detached from the Mangler sequence once it was done, although they were pleased to note that even people who hated PRIME DIRECTIVES seemed okay with the flashbacks. In retrospect, they realized: PRIME DIRECTIVES operates on a theme of misusing children: James became a killer due to Sara Cable's machinations and she aborted her unborn child and made it look like a miscarriage and let John suffer that grief to create a wedge that would justify their divorce. Kaydick fathered Jordan into a hard drive for his technorganic virus. And the Mangler was a child killer except now he wasn't. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:41 am ----------------------------------- It was only when reading the original shooting scripts that I realized the problem. "Dark Justice" deliberately has Cable walk away from Da Bombz situation and then Bone Machine appears. The script makes it very clear that the Bone Machine costume obscures the wearer's identity and the man underneath the suit cannot be identified. The implication is that John Cable is Bone Machine. If I´m not mistaken, in the description of Bone Machine in the drafts says that he uses a helmet hiding the whole face (think Iron Man meets a motorbike helmet), with a rough skull sprayed on top. It´d make sense to think Cable would be him. Also, his voice is distorted, while in the filmed version that was scrapped. "Dark Justice" is predicated entirely on the possibility that the villain is Murphy's old friend EXCEPT THE BONE MACHINE COSTUME EXPOSES THE WEARER'S FACE AND IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT MAURICE DEAN WINT IN THE SUIT WHY WHY WHY? As a result, there is absolutely no tension between Cable and Murphy over their manhunt and no suspense over the identity of Bone Machine. Funny, as the first drafts had a happier Cable. He supports Robo from the first minute, and he´s the cop who reaches him when he´s on the floor. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:40 pm ----------------------------------- I'm like 95% ireactions is Julian Grant at this point... either that or his spouse or someone really close. How else would someone have an encyclopedic knowledge of the entire making of Robocop PD? Well, he could be a fan. I had access to some behind the scenes stuff and such, thanks to the fact that Robo-Team was friendly enough. Easy to interview and eager to talk, plus I developed some kind of friendship with one of the writers (I helped with some of his projects, he collaborates on some of mine). When I was a teenager, the PD team would send me scripts for subsequent projects and were essentially asking for advice on their professional careers from a child who hadn't even finished high school I find that pretty incredulous. My theory makes much more sense, and I'm sticking to it. ----------------------------------- ireactions Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:58 pm ----------------------------------- Funny, as the first drafts had a happier Cable. He supports Robo from the first minute, and he´s the cop who reaches him when he´s on the floor. Interesting! What's James Murphy like in these earlier drafts? I was told that in earlier versions (which I never read), James was a more heroic figure, a figure of decency from the start, but the PD team found it rather flat, so they decided to have James start out as a callous murderer who reprogrammed Murphy to kill Cable but then has a change of heart and turns against OCP. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:58 pm ----------------------------------- Interesting! What's James Murphy like in these earlier drafts? I was told that in earlier versions (which I never read), James was a more heroic figure, a figure of decency from the start, but the PD team found it rather flat, so they decided to have James start out as a callous murderer who reprogrammed Murphy to kill Cable but then has a change of heart and turns against OCP. I don´t remember, really. Don´t think he was that good, but in the later installments he´s pretty ok with his father. "Resurrection" was a different movie itself, so there´s no confrontation between father and son. Or that´s what I recall. ----------------------------------- RoboJOF Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:51 am ----------------------------------- I am out of my league here, as I have not read any of the adaptations of the Prime Directives movies or any of the source materials that is available, but as a fan of the movies I can at least offer my take on your topic of Dark Justice. I found it to be somewhat of a bridge between the original film and the material that we are building up to in the other installments. It presents the characters, shows the passage of time, introduces the Bone Machine storyline as a mystery to solve, and then ends, much like Robocop's original movie began, with a cop gunned down in the line of duty and a project to bring him back with technology. Unfortunately, in the grand scheme of things, Dark Justice was mostly a plot device to give us RoboCable. They did spend time laying out the OCP corporate characters, the back stories, and Bone Machine, but the biggest developments in corporation's technology network, Kaydick and his revenge scheme, the Robocop/RoboCable fights, teamups, etc. all rise to the surface much later. This makes me think that like others have suggested (and I'll add, with some reliable information from some of the filmmakers) that it was supposed to be more of a movie, more compelling, and more connected to the rest of the series. As to why some viewers like it more/are less offended by it, perhaps its because it is a simple story. I must admit, the intertwining stories with Kaydick, his history, Anne R. Key and her band of cyber-warriors, the OCP hierarchy (and the real people in charge), Robocop and his memories of Cable haunting him, Cable chasing him down at every turn (it gets so bad, Robocop has to disguise himself with a cloak to avoid being located), Otomo commercials, the mercenaries who are destroying everyone but Robocop, James Murphy, and anything else I have missed . . . It is a busy series. Only someone who loves the franchise is going to be up for that kind of investment of time and attention to give it a fair viewing. Or it could be simply because it was the first thing resembling a Robocop movie since Robocop 3 and everyone was just excited to see it until they did. ----------------------------------- OcpCommunications Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:54 am ----------------------------------- If you ask me the biggest thing that went wrong other than the budget, the script or the decision to make each episode an hour and 20 something minutes, was Page Fletcher as RoboCop. He was far too short for the role. He wasn't intimidating or imposing and his performance was honestly quite awful. Especially compared to Richard Eden who as old as he was, should have been brought back. I like to call him RoboRunt. No offense to Page. I love him in The Hitchhiker. But he was just horribly miscast here. There are other elements that don't work as well but I don't want to be here all day. lol ----------------------------------- Rick Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:05 pm ----------------------------------- I still think it is incredible Page was approached for the 1994 TV series first, and when he turned it down they went to Richard. And then for PD they approached Richard and it didn't work out so they went to Page. The 94 TV series was by no means great, but it is watchable at best. Having Page play Murphy for all 22 episodes would have been horrific. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:31 am ----------------------------------- I still think it is incredible Page was approached for the 1994 TV series first, and when he turned it down they went to Richard. And then for PD they approached Richard and it didn't work out so they went to Page. The 94 TV series was by no means great, but it is watchable at best. Having Page play Murphy for all 22 episodes would have been horrific. It´d be an interesting thing to watch, I think. Fletcher would be still small, yes, but he´d have a coach to mime the robomoves. On the other hand, Eden on PD would have some meat; I feel he´s always restrained in The Series. But if he wasn´t in The Series from the first time, he´d end inventing his own moves, as PD didn´t have somebody to make the actors in the suits move correctly. ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:15 pm ----------------------------------- It´d be an interesting thing to watch, I think. Fletcher would be still small, yes, but he´d have a coach to mime the robomoves. That is a very interesting point and really does make you wonder. Fletcher gets a lot of hate for his portrayal of Robo while Eden's performance is usually seen as a highlight of the Series. But maybe they don't deserve all the blame or credit himself. Fletcher should have done more homework to study Weller's movements, but who is to say Eden would have done that if he didn't have a coach? Since Weller studied with a mime to get a very exact way of moving it should be mandatory to have some kind of rigorous training for moving as Robo. Ultimately, it comes down to director and producers. If they wanted Fletcher to move like RoboCop for PD, they would have made him do it. But they didn't, and that just goes to show how little they cared about RoboCop himself. The Series, on the other hand, is very respectful of the original film in terms of production, replicating just about everything, even using stand-in characters for the ones they didn't have the rights to use. So while we often think of Eden as a good Robo and Fletcher as a bad Robo, it really is more a reflection of the creators of each respective show. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:44 am ----------------------------------- Plus, Fletcher would have the classical third-act makeup while he´s Murphy without the helmet. And Eden would end with the makeup from PD. Again, that´d be interesting to watch. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:52 pm ----------------------------------- I´ve been doing tests with PD forever, and I think if the miniseries would be made today it could become a hit. I mean, it´s amazing how different things are right now. Back in 1999 PD had a small chance to make the OCP builiding look real. Right now anyone with a laptop could make a realistic OCP tower and it´s background. CGI improved and it´s easier to edit stuff (I´m trying to make something different with the miniseries, but it´s funny how you can archieve some different looks with edits and layers). I mean, right now you could make the technospike appears without using the prop on a tight, close up shot. Same with the holster. You could make the chinguard dissapear in some frames. They could enhance the sets. And so on. Hell, they could even make Murphy´s back look like the ones on the movies just with the computer! I bet even with a low budget like the one they had they could archieve something better if talented people were doing the post-production work. After all, most of Netflix´s Marvel shows doesn´t look like a big budget stravaganza, but doesn´t look "cheap" either. ----------------------------------- Archive Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:16 pm ----------------------------------- The problem with TV shows then, and now, is that there always seem to be a lack of time. The excuse for any problem in PD was that they just didn't have enough of it. And i get that. Unlike the 1994 series, Robo:PD was very much a rushed and cheap project. If PD or a new Robo TV show was made today it would no doubt look better but watching some of the new factory made shows like "Arrow" and "Supergirl" and it is clear time is still a problem. Sometimes the FX looks fine while other times it looks absolutely terrible. It is tragic when some guys on youtube can create better FX than major network shows on TV. ----------------------------------- RoboLewis Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:48 pm ----------------------------------- Page Fletcher as RoboTot was the problem! Hiring someone who never saw the movies was a bad decision. I would have liked to have seen Richard Eden back in the role because I liked him on the series. ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:02 pm ----------------------------------- Page Fletcher as RoboTot was the problem! Hiring someone who never saw the movies was a bad decision. I would have liked to have seen Richard Eden back in the role because I liked him on the series. ...So, seriously, I'm glad Richard Eden had the good sense to stay away from this stinker. Page Fletcher was good as Murphy, but not Robo. Terribly miscast actor. ----Sean ----------------------------------- Mindchamber Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:46 am ----------------------------------- honestly, if they would've scaled the story down a bit. It could've worked a bit smoother. Keeping it down to a single intriguing villain instead of.. what 3? would've helped a lot. ----------------------------------- Robomania Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:53 pm ----------------------------------- I think my main problem was Fletcher. If someone else was in the suit, say Eden, it might be a bit more watchable... I agree. That was the same problem I had with PD. I think they should have tried really hard to get Eden to wear the suit one last time. I recently watched the pilot movie for RoboCop The Series, and thought it wasn't that bad, Eden performed well as RoboCop, yeah, he didn't kill anybody, but that's how TV was at the time, I believe Walker, Texas Ranger was considered the most violent show on TV at the time, I'm sure had RoboCop The Series been made now, it could be as violent as 24. Also, if they weren't allowed to use sound effects from the movie because of having only the rights to The Series, then they could have at least had used The Series sound effects, at least the sound effects for the movements. I was unaware of what rights they had, certainly agreed on the movement sounds though. Couldn't get used to the clanking sound. I also took issue with the movements themselves, not very subtle. Also agreed Eden wasn't a bad Robocop, just tied in with PG13 restraints, I had no issues with him as the character himself in that setting. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:34 am ----------------------------------- Couldn't get used to the clanking sound . I don´t mind that clanking sound, but I think Cable should have the original RoboFootsteps FX. That way it´d make some kind of sense to have Murphy with rusty sound fx. Anyway, were the changes done due to rights? While RoboCop in The Series sounded right, I thought they recreated the sounds. I mean, the holster sound is different from the films (sometimes a little bit too much, like the over-the-top one used in a scene from "Prime Suspect"), so I guess the FX in PD were changed on purpose and not because they didn´t have the rights to use the ones from the films. ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:11 pm ----------------------------------- honestly, if they would've scaled the story down a bit. It could've worked a bit smoother. Keeping it down to a single intriguing villain instead of.. what 3? would've helped a lot. I did feeel as if the story was stretched a little bit too far. I mean the Anne R. Key storyline felt Way too forced (too fan-fictiony IMO), especially tying it into the main RoboCop storyline. I'm cool with Bone Machine. Actually dug that little bit. Shit, I can think of a million different ways to condense this shitshow as a single outing. ...counting villains... 1. Bone Machine 2. Damian Lowe 3. Kaydick/Legion BS 4. Sara Cable (fuckin Bitch)/The Trust (rebellious sect of OCP centered on Mutiny, ineffective plot, dead end) 5. Cable (saw more as a victim than villain, but he fought Robo, so.... Villain) 6. James Murphy & EMP (again, more victim of The Trust) 7. The Fuckin OCP building, fo gawdsakes 8. Jordan Dick (Moooooooooom!) 9. System Support and their questionable ethics I'll stop there, because this series of "FILMS" had so much happening in it to keep focus. And any "RoboCop" stuff that was any good were the clips they lifted from the series episodes. Which, I'll stop there and focus on THAT particular issue there.... Whyinthefuck?! Are they trying to tie in this 4-part turd fest to a Nuetered failed TV show that was released during the Parental Control days of TV when Mom seemed to be running the FCC? Look, I have a soft spot for the Series, it was cheese much the same as Batman '66 was Cheese. But this was like trying to tie Tim Burton's Batman to the Campy Batman '66, (we got Batman Forever) and this is our Batman, dammit. So much of this movie was lifted right from the Series. But the most criminal of which was the "Super-Spin". The Super-spin. WTF? It's apparent Fletcher "didn't watch the movies", by his own admission, but did he even read the script? Murphy twirls the fucker like a cowboy. Did he do this for an easy paycheck? Look, I've worked in bad kitchens before. But I still look at the temperature on the grill before I burn the eggs! So much of PD is an eye-sore, from the reused shots to the psuedo-slow-motion shots that were reused and mirrored to try to building tension in the action. The shitty acting, and the silliness of the stretched out, force-fed sci-fi story that was mashed together with a popular Movie icon. It's still more enjoyable than that remake. If an enema from Bugs Bunny is slightly more enjoyable than being anal-raped by Q-bert. ----Sean ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:29 pm ----------------------------------- Whyinthefuck?! Are they trying to tie in this 4-part turd fest to a Nuetered failed TV show that was released during the Parental Control days of TV when Mom seemed to be running the FCC? Look, I have a soft spot for the Series, it was cheese much the same as Batman '66 was Cheese. But this was like trying to tie Tim Burton's Batman to the Campy Batman '66, (we got Batman Forever) and this is our Batman, dammit. Were they? As far as I noticed, the use of The Series footage was done on odd levels. There´s the Dark Justice scene where they borrowed a RoboCruiser shot in the night; an explosion mixed on the Bone Machine fight at the end; a really weird shots of a builiding explosion for Meltdown (it makes little sense to the plot) and... Don´t remember much (you can count some holster footage here and there as well). The rest of the shots were used for MediaNet, specially on the RoboCop Greatest´s Moments montages. So, that doesn´t meant they tried to connect PD with the previous series... they stole clips from The Series because it was cheaper than filming some action scenes :b I´ve been studying PD´s footage for the project I´m doing and I always found weird the use of The Series footage. C´mon, why using the RoboCruiser passing from one side to another at night. I meant, a second unit could have done that instead of using stock footage. Yet, they could use some explosions and FX stuff from the 94 series to enhance the action on PD and there´s little use of that. Or establishing shots (something the miniseries needed) to let us know where we are. Or to make OCP a living building with people instead of some corridors with the same 5, 6 people on it. The Super-spin. WTF? It's apparent Fletcher "didn't watch the movies", by his own admission, but did he even read the script? Murphy twirls the fucker like a cowboy. Did he do this for an easy paycheck? Weller said spinning the gun is like spinning a baseball bat, and even Eden couldn´t make it (he "spins" it twice and looks like a lazy move instead of the Robospin, that´s why they used that "Super-spin" on "Provision 22", which it looks like they made it via composition, adding the gun to the pose). I don´t know if Fletcher couldn´t make it or they even didn´t try it in the first place. But yep, they should have keep that as it´s a part of the character. ----------------------------------- Robomania Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:52 pm ----------------------------------- Couldn't get used to the clanking sound . I don´t mind that clanking sound, but I think Cable should have the original RoboFootsteps FX. That way it´d make some kind of sense to have Murphy with rusty sound fx. . That's a thought, I overlooked the emphasis on him being old, I'm sure I remember at one point him being referred to as 'old nuts and bolts' or something. Still like the thud sound better though :) ----------------------------------- Sean_001 Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:06 pm ----------------------------------- Whyinthefuck?! Are they trying to tie in this 4-part turd fest to a Nuetered failed TV show that was released during the Parental Control days of TV when Mom seemed to be running the FCC? Were they? Granted, I don't REALLY believe that was their intent. I meant this purely as a satirical lead-in to me point of them relying to heavily on the series footage. Honestly, I saw the MediaNet segment as sort of cheeky, and like it actually came in good use there. But they "stole" the footage, instead of sending that second unit for easily achievable shots. I get that special effects explosives are not cheap. But flat out reusing shots like that is just lazy filmmaking. Reusing (albeit using their own background) establishing shots of the Police Station and certain Cruiser driving scenes aside, they did capture some REALLY good looking shots. All those unique and awesome shots were tarnished when they reused THOSE shots, then slowed it down, mirrored it, and alter the sound editing a bit. That's just "Padding out the runtime" as some critics would say. And "Padding the runtime" is just cheap and stupid. It reeks of garbage, and lack of substance to the story. What story there was, was a damn mess. As I said earlier, too much being thrown together. Like trying to make a big puzzle out of 4 jigsaw puzzles, hammering in pieces to force a fit. Analogies aside, PD is a horrendous work of art. It's cheese for cheese sake. And I love to hate this series, almost as much as I hate how much I love it. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:16 pm ----------------------------------- Reusing (albeit using their own background) establishing shots of the Police Station and certain Cruiser driving scenes aside, they did capture some REALLY good looking shots. All those unique and awesome shots were tarnished when they reused THOSE shots. I assume PD, as a rushed production, had some troubles while editing. I can picture a "oh, we needed a RoboCruiser shot for this chat between Cable and Robo" more than "we´ll use one of these shots from The Series". I want to believe they forgot to shot stuff due to time/budget than taking these kind of shots from the previous series. That´s why I said earlier: the shots from The Series are used on a very odd way. As we talked in previous posts, somebody could take a camera and filming the RoboCop car going from left to right. I´ll like to think about poor planification instead of "we´ll fill that with footage from the 90´s". * I get that special effects explosives are not cheap. But flat out reusing shots like that is just lazy filmmaking. I think the problem here are us. I wonder if a non RoboExpert would notice the differences or if that shot of an explosion is from the miniseries or borrowed. For the project I´m trying to do I´m stealing all The Series stuff I could to put in the PD remix I´m cooking. Just to try to enhance the enviroments. Everything seems so... small on PD due to the lack of bigger shots. And The Series didn´t have too much people either (in most of the episodes when there are people making a protest or a press conference there aren´t too many people. Yet they managed to make it credible between close ups and wide shots. Most of PD was filmed waist up or on a face close-up). They could put ten persons walking on the OCP building and, while there isn´t too crowded, it works since the building looked big. When you compare it to the elevator corridors on the miniseries, it looked like a small, empty room instead of a Corporation Building. * While using footage from the 94 Series on the PD scenes I found it extremely difficult to make it work. Blurry and grainy. I´m sure they´d have access to a better quality footage from the shot, but yet at some points you can see the coloring doesn´t match the 1999´s footage. That and some grainy stuff here and there. ----------------------------------- ireactions Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:49 pm ----------------------------------- I believe the use of SERIES footage was simply due to time and budget. It's largely in the Medianet sequences, but also in DARK JUSTICE for a shot of RoboCop's foot hitting the ground and then RoboCop driving. In MELTDOWN, the shot of Da Bomz headquarters exploding and another explosion with the RoboHunters is from THE SERIES. The gun twirl in CRASH AND BURN is also from THE SERIES. The gun spinning is something that the PRIME DIRECTIVES team liked as a plot element in the first ROBOCOP as a reference to Murphy's returning memories, but, rightly or wrongly, they didn't want to use it unless there was a specific plot purpose for it. The use of THE SERIES footage is largely a joke on editing and how news media can spin stories. Generic clips of Richard Eden's RoboCop are made to look heroic in DARK JUSTICE but menacingly malicious in MELTDOWN. But I do wish there hadn't been any reused footage outside of that. When I first watched PRIME DIRECTIVES at age 15, I hadn't seen much of THE SERIES, but even then, I could tell what was from THE SERIES. I felt the footage from THE SERIES had a much lower contrast level and looks brighter than PRIME DIRECTIVES and a different saturation level and grain pattern. But -- it might be due to a fan, in 2000, having edited together a compilation/trailer of THE SERIES' best visual moments: explosions, RoboCop entrances, driving -- and all the high points of this compilation were also to be found in PRIME DIRECTIVES. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:44 am ----------------------------------- The use of THE SERIES footage is largely a joke on editing and how news media can spin stories. Generic clips of Richard Eden's RoboCop are made to look heroic in DARK JUSTICE but menacingly malicious in MELTDOWN. But I do wish there hadn't been any reused footage outside of that. I think the MediaNet were handled fine. Fun stuff on it, plus The Series footage was used nicely. And even makes sense, when they do that compilation videos of Robo over the years. But I always find lame how they release the warehouse explosion in Dark Justice and then re-used the same exact shots for the Alamo bit. The gun spinning is something that the PRIME DIRECTIVES team liked as a plot element in the first ROBOCOP as a reference to Murphy's returning memories, but, rightly or wrongly, they didn't want to use it unless there was a specific plot purpose for it. While the writers said that in the past, I think previous scripts included some "Murphy twirls his gun" when a fight scene is done. Thinking way too much, I see Murphy´s twirl like a movement he does without ever thinking on it. And it was done in Robo 1 & 2, so it´s a characteristic of the character. I don´t recall a twirl in 3, but he uses the Gunarm more than the Auto-9. Anyway, if Robo doesn´t twirl the gun I think it´s because the actor can´t move that big-ass gun more than a plot device :b It´d be interesting to take a look to the script to see if everything from the finished product is there or if they changed stuff when they´re filming. ----------------------------------- ireactions Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:49 pm ----------------------------------- I can't remember if the gun twirl was in the scripts or not. But when filming, the creators felt that the gun twirl was not a stylistic flourish to be used as one of RoboCop's mannerisms, but something very specific to Murphy and his relationship with his son, and the team ultimately decided that their story of Murphy and his son was not enriched by the gun twirl. To me... I can sort of see that argument, and while I really enjoy PRIME DIRECTIVES, I concede that there are certain identifiers for fans of RoboCop that need to be present for RoboCop to feel like RoboCop. The fans need RoboCop to be physically imposing. To move with confidence, forcefulness, and mechanistic cool. To be performed by a gifted mime artist (or an actor who has been coached by a gifted mime artist). To win two thirds of his fights as opposed to crawling away from all of them. And to twirl his gun. I have something similar with the TV show ELEMENTARY, a modern version of Sherlock Holmes (except that unlike most RoboCop fans who hate PRIME DIRECTIVES, I'm a Holmes fan who loves ELEMENTARY). ELEMENTARY presents a version of Sherlock Holmes who rarely if ever does the 'Sherlock Scan' where Holmes looks at a person's demeanor, clothing, face, hands, posture and immediately discerns their life's story, profession, relationships and habits from the small details of their appearance. ELEMENTARY's version of Sherlock Holmes barely ever does this (because TV is a factory and writing these deductions is extremely difficult and takes weeks that TV writers don't have). Because of this, the Sherlock Holmes of ELEMENTARY doesn't feel like Sherlock Holmes to me no matter how much I enjoy the show. I really like PRIME DIRECTIVES as an alternate vision of RoboCop. The 2000 cable TV version. But yes. Anyone making a RoboCop series should present RoboCop with RoboCop's Robocopisms. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:12 pm ----------------------------------- I really like PRIME DIRECTIVES as an alternate vision of RoboCop. The 2000 cable TV version. But yes. Anyone making a RoboCop series should present RoboCop with RoboCop's Robocopisms. I´m in the same boat. I really dig it. I grew up watching blockbusters and low budget movies, so the lack of money don´t scare me. Well, it scares me in real life because money moves everything, but not on movies budgets. But I can see why people don´t like it. The fans need RoboCop to be physically imposing. Yes. I won´t take crap on Fletcher, because even haters liked him as Murphy, but they could trick his stature shoting him on lower angles (or even putting a box or similar to make him bigger when with other actors). We talked about that here a bunch of times. To move with confidence, forcefulness, and mechanistic cool. I understand some people not liking the movements here. I think if Wint would move like the original RoboCop some people would pass the lack of robo-fidelity on Fletcher´s part as a "creative choice" to make the character older. Same with the FX footsteps. To win two thirds of his fights as opposed to crawling away from all of them. And to twirl his gun. That´s the part that saddess me. As a guy who likes to edit stuff (since I have no friends and the few ones won´t want to do shorts... Assholes! :b) it´s hard to get a heroic moment for RoboCop in the miniseries. And I know drama is needed, and it´s good to have the good guy taking some beating and being in danger instead of winning always... but after Dark Justice Robo loses every fight. Which makes the ending kind of funny, as we previously talked about it on this forum: Crash & Burn has RoboCop with his empty body, malfunctioning and almost dying, then Cable saves the day (the sacrifice move is good, but Murphy doesn´t do much) and goes into Delta City to stop the violence in the streets. Since the character was malfunctioning and he didn´t have too many energy left, he would try to take some regular baddies and fell into the ground. Did he suddenly has his Efficency back at 100%? The realistic approach would have him back into the precint to get some maintenance, like at the end of Dark Justice. Him getting the baddies look better, yes, but makes little sense when you think about it :) Trying to do an edit making this RoboCop a triumphant figure is like trying to make some cool action video with the footage of RebootCop with the silver suit: impossible. I really like PRIME DIRECTIVES as an alternate vision of RoboCop. The 2000 cable TV version. But yes. Anyone making a RoboCop series should present RoboCop with RoboCop's Robocopisms. Yes. Again, on the same boat. People don´t usually go so passionate about different versions of Batman or his favorite character, and even RoboCop don´t feel the same between movies (even if Weller is playing him). I think of this as an "Elseworlds" kind of story, like the kind of short running comic from a specific artist toying with an established character. Even people here thinks PD would make a cool comic (to the point I asked the writers why they didn´t try to sell the original concept to BOOM! or whoever owns the comic rights right now to be adapted into a graphic novel, since the end result is WAY different than the original concept for the miniseries. But it seems they can´t do much with it, since they were hired scriptwriters). ----------------------------------- RoboPimp Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:54 pm ----------------------------------- even haters liked him as Murphy I did not like him as Murphy. It probably has more to with the script/directing and just the way he is portrayed in general, but the flashback stuff of him as Murphy is actually the portion of PD I remember least fondly. You can do RoboCop poorly and I will still enjoy it somehow because it is still Robo. But the flashback Murphy stuff was just unbearably generic and boring. And it did not feel like Murhpy to me. Sure, we only got to see him for a few minutes in the movie, giving us little to work off of. But there was one thing that stood out: his smile. Murphy seemed like the guy who grinned in the face of death, and indeed when he was transferred to a dangerous precinct he didn't complain upon arrival, he smiled. I did not see any of that charm in PD, and he came across much more like a typical hardass cop. Sure, that may be an accurate extrapolation of what to expect from a model cop, but it is not compelling to watch for me. Fletcher did not bring anything special to the role of Murhpy, he was just less disappointing compared to his performance as Robo. People don´t usually go so passionate about different versions of Batman You sure about that? Not to get too offtopic, but I'd dare to say that people are generally more passionate about Batman than RoboCop. There are diehard Nolan apologists who clash with the true Batman fans like myself (just kidding, but not really) and then there are Snyder/Affleck fans and haters with a healthy debate still raging across social media today. And that's just the movies. If you don't think people aren't passionate about Batman like we are about RoboCop, you haven't spent much time hanging out in comic shops in the past few decades. People absolutely debate specific series, costumes, minor variations just like we are talking about PD. I should know, I grew up in a comic shop and have had those debates countless times myself. Even more than we have debated RoboCop, actually, just because Batman is an older and more mainstream character. But that's kind of the point. Obviously we are very passionate about our fandom to still be on this message board debating it. But we are only on this messageboard. There has never been a RoboCon, a fan zine, or entire site for RoboCop fan fiction. We are as passionate about our fandom as anyone, but to say RoboCop fans are special or more passionate than other kinds of fans is just some holier than though bullshit, to be blunt. We are not more passionate than Terminator fans because there are less of us, just cooler. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:20 pm ----------------------------------- I did not like him as Murphy. It probably has more to with the script/directing and just the way he is portrayed in general, but the flashback stuff of him as Murphy is actually the portion of PD I remember least fondly. You can do RoboCop poorly and I will still enjoy it somehow because it is still Robo. But the flashback Murphy stuff was just unbearably generic and boring. And it did not feel like Murhpy to me. Sure, we only got to see him for a few minutes in the movie, giving us little to work off of. But there was one thing that stood out: his smile. Murphy seemed like the guy who grinned in the face of death, and indeed when he was transferred to a dangerous precinct he didn't complain upon arrival, he smiled. I did not see any of that charm in PD, and he came across much more like a typical hardass cop. Sure, that may be an accurate extrapolation of what to expect from a model cop, but it is not compelling to watch for me. Fletcher did not bring anything special to the role of Murhpy, he was just less disappointing compared to his performance as Robo. The problem I got with his Murphy is that his personality clashes with the one on the film(s). On the Dark Justice flashback he seemed way "by the book". Maybe that was the point of the flashback, as Cable was the one who insisted on going inside (something that Murphy does before dying in the first one). Anyway, we need to talk about something until Ed shares the first trailer of the "Dick Jones" tv show... :b You sure about that? Not to get too offtopic, but I'd dare to say that people are generally more passionate about Batman than RoboCop. I meant in the sense that a bunch of people accept that there are Ok with the fact that there was a campy one on TV, two gothic ones, a two pack of neon-homoerotic films and so on. Even they accept that other characters from the comics could portray Batman (Dick Grayson being Batman at some point, or the Batman Beyond show). It could be changed a little bit and people would dig it (after all, each writer and artist has their own ideas). I know there could be heated debates and such, but reinterpretations are often welcome. That said... and then there are Snyder/Affleck fans and haters with a healthy debate still raging across social media today. What a crappy (but good looking) Batman! :b ----------------------------------- ireactions Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:38 pm ----------------------------------- People don´t usually go so passionate about different versions of Batman or his favorite character, and even RoboCop don´t feel the same between movies (even if Weller is playing him). I think of this as an "Elseworlds" kind of story, like the kind of short running comic from a specific artist toying with an established character. Even people here thinks PD would make a cool comic (to the point I asked the writers why they didn´t try to sell the original concept to BOOM! or whoever owns the comic rights right now to be adapted into a graphic novel, since the end result is WAY different than the original concept for the miniseries. But it seems they can´t do much with it, since they were hired scriptwriters). I think the main problem is that ROBOCOP II, III, THE SERIES and PRIME DIRECTIVES all insist that they are sequels to the original movie (to varying degrees), but they clearly aren't (to varying degrees). R2 has the original cast, but the new director has traded in Paul Verhoeven's absurdist violence for just violence. The over the top and therefore hilarious tone of R1 becomes cruel and hurtful in R2. R3 presents RoboCop as a children's life size action figure, a police mascot with automatic guns. R2 and R3 are also deeply incompetent films on so many levels with Cain's mystifyingly incoherent character, aborted and incomplete story arcs and at times incomprehensible story elements. THE SERIES, from a production standpoint, seems pretty solid to me for the 90s and Richard Eden's interpretation of RoboCop is detailed, obsessive and wonderful and a non-violent adaptive cyborg is a terrific idea for a version of RoboCop, but then it needs its own origin story instead of claiming the same one as the 1987 film by reusing its footage of Murphy's death scene. It'd be better to present FRANK MILLER'S ROBOCOP and ROBOCOP: POLICE MASCOT as alternate visions the way the Superman of LOIS AND CLARK is not the Superman of the Christopher Reeve movies. PRIME DIRECTIVES seems to have hit a breaking point with the fans where, after years of impersonators, they get an actor with no mime training and no mime coaching. Batman has been blessed by decades of publishing, TV shows and films with so many contradictory depictions that no single version can really damage the ones that worked out well. RoboCop had one definitive portrayal and then far too many inauthentic impersonators; even if it's the same actor in R2, the world of the near future Detroit is clearly not the one in R1. And I find this to be a similar situation with Page Fletcher as Murphy in PRIME DIRECTIVES. I think Fletcher does a good job playing an experienced but naive police officer who is intimidated by a serial killer, admiring of Cable's cool confidence and surrenders when his partner is held hostage. But this simply isn't the same character as Peter Weller's Murphy, a determined idealist who takes the lead in a crisis and faces death refusing to show fear or vulnerability to his executioners. Weller was also quite a bit younger than Fletcher in Fletcher's flashbacks; Fletcher might have benefitted from a dye job to his silver hair. The PRIME DIRECTIVES team took the view that the flashback in DARK JUSTICE turned Murphy into the more self-assured version we met in the first movie. The end result, at least for me -- Page Fletcher plays a good version of Page Fletcher's Alex Murphy, but fans ultimately want Peter Weller's Alex Murphy. I'm sure fans wouldn't have demanded that Fletcher put on a Peter Weller mask. But I think fans would have wanted the DARK JUSTICE script to feature Murphy demonstrating Weller's cool under fire at some point to connect him to the original performer -- perhaps a gun twirl or a moment where he is more Weller-esque when saying good-bye Cable for the last time. In DARK JUSTICE, Fletcher's Murphy is unconfrontational when bidding his farewell, not making eye contact, looking away. I think this would have been a moment for Fletcher's Murphy to stand up to Cable firmly and resolutely the way Weller's Murphy faced down Clarence Bodikker. Ultimately, PRIME DIRECTIVES declined to attempt any pastiche of Paul Verhoeven's direction or Peter Weller's acting... and I think it might have been best for the fans if PRIME DIRECTIVES hadn't been a sequel to the 1987 movie but its own version of RoboCop with an origin story, a career, and a conclusion separate and distinct from the first film. I don't know what licensing allowed the AVATAR and BOOM publishing houses to acquire and adapt Frank Miller's original scripts. I wonder if they could someday license the PRIME DIRECTIVES scripts for a comic book adaptation. The PRIME DIRECTIVES writers have written some comics (some published, some not) and I think they'd be up for it, although BOOM pays a lower page rates than the industry standard and the economics might not be encouraging. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:15 am ----------------------------------- Fletcher might have benefitted from a dye job to his silver hair. Yup, that´d help to sell the "Young Murphy" look. And that would take little effort to make. I think it might have been best for the fans if PRIME DIRECTIVES hadn't been a sequel to the 1987 movie but its own version of RoboCop with an origin story, a career, and a conclusion separate and distinct from the first film. I don´t think sharing the previous story hurts the whole thing. Again, what I said about Batman: you can tweak the universe, but the origin is the same. I think having a new origin and not having any connection to the previous films would make the miniseries a more hated production :b I wonder if they could someday license the PRIME DIRECTIVES scripts for a comic book adaptation. That would be really interesting to see, since the original idea is way different from the finished product. You know, a more sleek RoboCop with blue visor, the whole cyberpunk stuff, the battles... I´m sure casual fans would like to take a read on that, as it´d be similar to the comic adaptations of Robo 2 & 3. The PRIME DIRECTIVES writers have written some comics (some published, some not) I know :wink: I think they'd be up for it, although BOOM pays a lower page rates than the industry standard and the economics might not be encouraging. Well, I think they could sit and enjoy the process. I meant, Miller´s implication on the recent comic adaptations of his drafts of RoboCop 2 and 3 was minimal. Steven Grant adapted the (movie) scripts into comic scripts, and then someone else draw it (Ryp and Öztekin). I´m sure there would be any legal stuff involved (I assume you get the movie rights to RoboCop when you publish comics about the character, so you´d need to buy the rights for the miniseries? I don´t know how these things work). But I´m sure it´d be fun to get that. Plus, we´d get new RoboComics, something that I think we won´t have in a while. ----------------------------------- ireactions Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:17 am ----------------------------------- Recently, I found an old CRT television in storage and played some of PRIME DIRECTIVES on it. Suddenly, I was seeing PRIME DIRECTIVES as I'd originally watched it: on a 20-inch cathode ray tube television. I realized: this CRT image of PRIME DIRECTIVES is very much not the same PRIME DIRECTIVES that I've been watching -- or that anyone has been watching -- for at least 10 to 15 years. CRT vs LCD Televisions On original broadcast, I remember having a high opinion of Page Fletcher's performance and the overall production. And now, comparing how PD looks on a standard definition CRT television versus a modern 4K LCD-LED display, I realize how the visual quality of the series is shockingly diminished in going from CRT to LCD, even accounting for how it's standard definition DVD stretched to 4K. In 2001, when PD was first broadcast, most TVs in most homes were low resolution CRT displays. HDTVs would take until 2013 to reach 3/4 of North American homes. Watching PD on this aged CRT screen of a bygone era, I find Page Fletcher's performance and movements convey a compelling anger and determined force; the helmetless makeup looks effective, the RoboCop suit looks weathered and storied, the sets seem full of depth and atmosphere. Watching PD on a 55-inch 4K TV: Page Fletcher performance looks less like drama and more like an actor struggling in his costume and he is distractingly shorter than the other actors, the makeup and effects look under-rendered, the sets look flat and bare... but PD was a 2000-filmed TV mini series, and it was made to be watched on a 2000-era TV, the CRT TV that was in most homes in the 2000s. CRT Smoothing vs LCD Sharpness Why did PD's visuals and Page Fletcher's performance seem so strong to me on CRT, but so awkward and dampened on an HD television? A CRT TV is a 480i display. 480i is a standard definition interlaced format of two fields (even and odd) with a refresh rate of 60 hz, combining two image fields to form frames for a 30 FPS frame rate. The field blending creates motion blur across all in-motion image elements, smoothing movement with a sheen of a sheen of consistent fluidity. This field-blended, 60 hz refresh rate is much lower than high-definition TV sets today which have refresh rates from 120 to 240 hz. These higher LCD refresh rates reduce motion blur where CRT adds it. PD was letterboxed at 1.78:1 aspect ratio, a 16:9 rectangle 4:3 square. But 16:9 video on a 4:3 CRT display, despite being 16:9, looks different from 16:9 video on a 16:9 LCD display. A CRT display has a much shallower depth of field than a modern TV. With CRT, foreground and background are compressed: foreground visual elements all blend into a level of medium focus and medium distance, unlike a modern TV where it's more apparent what's close and what's farther away from the camera. CRT displays also had screen curvature, a slightly convex shape that magnified the center of the screen while making the sides seem smaller. As a result: under CRT frame blending with motion smoothing & blurring, Page Fletcher's performance is polished by a CRT-induced fluidity that makes his movements in the Robosuit seem coordinated and artful, like a forceful acting choice. The CRT display also compresses the composition of the shots into a tighter and center-magnified image. On this screen, Fletcher's performance looks bombastic and seems to fill the letterboxed screen, making him look dominant and dramatic. This is also because the screen magnification and compressed foreground/background make Fletcher take up more space in the center of the image. Distance and Height on CRT vs. LCD The switch from CRT to LCD-LED displays alters the shot compositions in a way that affect how Page Fletcher's height is perceived. On modern TVs, many shots seem to emphasize how Fletcher is shorter than the other actors despite RoboCop needing to be imposing. These shots are where Fletcher has been positioned farther from the camera than his scene partners. The eye perceives subjects farther from the camera as smaller than subjects closer to the lens. On a CRT display, distance from the camera is less impactful because shallow depth of field means the foreground elements, like actors, appear to be at equal distance and size, while CRT center magnification makes Fletcher look larger, all of which offset his lack of stature. On an LCD display, the shot composition puts Fletcher's short height and distance from the camera in full depth of field, making RoboCop look small. How Size and Resolution Affects Production Values The low resolution and small size of CRT also smooths out the quality of images and also renders them with significantly less dynamic range for light and colour. As a result, the PD sets on CRT have extremely deep blacks, making dark scenes look cloaked in darkness, creating a highly atmospheric and smooth look of the near future. The deep black levels also serve to conceal flaws: sets that look shadowy and atmospheric on CRT unfortunately look undecorated and empty on a more brightly lit LCD, makeup that looks adequate and effective on CRT looks underdetailed and shabby in full LCD range. CRT televisions also create a dot pattern over the image due to the shadow mask of the display which guides the electron guns to hit the screen phosphor dots. This dot pattern has the effect of filling in texture. Under CRT dots, undetailed makeup like RoboCop's helmetless face seems to have more texture implied due to the dot pattern filling in the gaps, and under-rendered computer graphics look sharper. 2000 Era TV on Modern Screens I think it's safe to say that PRIME DIRECTIVES, being made for TV in 2000, was made to be seen on the CRT television, produced and edited and made for CRT. When watching PD on a modern TV with at least double the refresh rate of a CRT television: the modern TV omits any CRT motion blur and field-blended frame smoothing and without that, Fletcher's movements go from fluidly forceful to abrupt, jerky, unbalanced and awkward. The flatscreen without CRT curvature means a lack of central magnification and a wider depth of field. The shot compositions that made look Fletcher look dominant on CRT now make him look diminished and emphasize how the other actors are taller. Sets that looked dense and shadowy on CRT now look bare and flat on modern televisions with a lack of set dressing. The higher dynamic range in lighting and colour of modern TVs has stripped away the shadowy sheen of the sets and shots and made them look underlit or empty or both. The absence of the CRT dot pattern also removes the filled-in texture of makeup and special effects, exposing their lack of detail and definition. I suspect the reason why I have such fond memories of PD looking great is because I'm remembering what it looked like on a CRT television which is the screen most people would have watched it on original broadcast in 2001. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:13 pm ----------------------------------- PD was letterboxed at 1.78:1 aspect ratio, a 16:9 rectangle 4:3 square. But 16:9 video on a 4:3 CRT display, despite being 16:9, looks different from 16:9 video on a 16:9 LCD display. A CRT display has a much shallower depth of field than a modern TV. With CRT, foreground and background are compressed: foreground visual elements all blend into a level of medium focus and medium distance, unlike a modern TV where it's more apparent what's close and what's farther away from the camera. CRT displays also had screen curvature, a slightly convex shape that magnified the center of the screen while making the sides seem smaller. I´m not sure how it was filmed, but I´ve been dissecting the miniseries and something that annoyed me is how things are framed in there. Makes me think it was filmed as 4:3 and adapted to widescreen, as some people guessed in the past. It makes little sense, I know, but most of the people in the shot has his forehead chopped on the frame. Check Jimmy´s visit to Cable´s office: it´s hard to get the top of his head in the frame. It makes everything claustrophobic. Even in the OCP halls they filmed everything way too close to the actors, so it needs space on both sides of the frame, and on top of it. It could be a deliberate choice, but why? I´d move some inches the camera so the frame could breath a little. It´d make sense if you´re doing a closeup, but cutting the top of the head in each frame looks weird. Plus, I think PD would have more luck in this streaming era. They had to reach the 90 minute mark for each installment. In today´s streaming crazyness, they could make a shorter episode and a longer one if needed, so they didn´t have to fill the series using the same shots more than once, or give long pauses, stares and silences to get these 90 minutes. It´s also weird that they didn´t use alternative takes for these situations, so I guess they didn´t film too much stuff to being able to choose. ----------------------------------- ireactions Wed Sep 04, 2024 10:09 pm ----------------------------------- I´m not sure how it was filmed, but I´ve been dissecting the miniseries and something that annoyed me is how things are framed in there. Makes me think it was filmed as 4:3 and adapted to widescreen, as some people guessed in the past. A lot of movies used open matte filming in the 90s and early 2000s, including Terminator 2, Jurassic Park and Minority Report. I would think that, as a TV project, PD would have been filmed open matte for TV broadcast. That said: I remember, on the CityTV broadcast of "Dark Justice", it was 4:3 and everything seemed weirdly zoomed in. When re-broadcast on SPACE and the Sci-Fi Channel, PD was 16:9, and I could see that the 4:3 CityTV broadcast was a severely cropped version of the 16:9 image. I have to wonder if the 16:9 version were already cropped to begin with. My theory would be: as TV movies filming in 1999 - 2000, they were shot open matte for 4:3 broadcast -- only for 16:9 to become a popular format for TV broadcast in 2000. One of my favourite shows, ANGEL, was broadcast in 4:3 in its first season in 1999, but switched to 16:9 in 2000 for Season 2. Maybe, with the popularity of 16:9 television, PRIME DIRECTIVES decided to then crop their open matte image to 1.78:1 -- only for City TV, still a 4:3 broadcaster, to crop the already-cropped broadcast tape. It makes little sense, I know, but most of the people in the shot has his forehead chopped on the frame. Check Jimmy´s visit to Cable´s office: it´s hard to get the top of his head in the frame. It makes everything claustrophobic. Even in the OCP halls they filmed everything way too close to the actors, so it needs space on both sides of the frame, and on top of it. It could be a deliberate choice, but why? I´d move some inches the camera so the frame could breath a little. It´d make sense if you´re doing a closeup, but cutting the top of the head in each frame looks weird. Regarding the closeups: the 16:9 look on a 4:3 TV with all the closeness to the actors really works for me on a 20 inch CRT television. CRT television is small and blurry (with the dot pattern masking the blur but adding no detail). Being close to the people and the faces adds immediacy and intimacy. However, watching it on a larger 55 inch LCD television was really aggravating for me: I was so put off by the forehead cutoffs just as you are. At 55 inches on a clear LCD, we don't need to be that close to the face. I think PD would have more luck in this streaming era. They had to reach the 90 minute mark for each installment. In today´s streaming crazyness, they could make a shorter episode and a longer one if needed, so they didn´t have to fill the series using the same shots more than once, or give long pauses, stares and silences to get these 90 minutes. It´s also weird that they didn´t use alternative takes for these situations, so I guess they didn´t film too much stuff to being able to choose. I found that on 20 inch CRT, long pauses and stares are effective because the screen is low resolution. Slower pacing lets me take in the character dynamics of body language and facial expression within the small image size and under the CRT dot pattern. But when scaled to a 55 inch screen, those pauses are unnecessary. The image is large and clear enough to see let the acting convey the characterization. One of my flawed-favourite TV shows is SLIDERS, and I consider the 1995 pilot episode of SLIDERS to be one of the finest pieces of filmmaking ever made. The opening sequence of SLIDERS has a very slow pan across a bedroom showing all the science posters and statuettes and sports gear (to convey the varied interests of the lead character). It is tedious and exasperating on a modern TV; the shot lingers long after the audience has read the posters and absorbed the items. But on a 1995-era CRT, this slow pan makes sense: a faster pan would create motion blur and obscure the visual information. PD has definitely not received any kind of adjustment for the transition from CRT to LCD display. I suspect, to even try to get it slightly more at home on a modern television, there would need to be reduced depth of field and center magnification to get the intended shot compositions back; and also relighting to obscure sets, makeup, effects and costumes that were deliberately underlit to hide the flaws. A lot of people have been really accusatory towards the PD team, and I'm paraphrasing, but they say things like, "How could they look at that makeup / costume / effect / set / shot and say it's good to go? It looks terrible!" But in 1999 - 2000, they were likely reviewing the assembly cuts on CRT displays that hid those flaws. In my case, I rewatched most of "Dark Justice" and and the second half of "Crash and Burn" on a 20 inch CRT... and this is the PRIME DIRECTIVES that I remember from 2001: shadowy and inky in darkness, fluid and forceful, small-screened yet impactful. I remembered in 2001 that the helmetless makeup looked good to me – not excellent, but adequate, and I was particularly impressed with how it looked at the end of "Crash and Burn". But then, on a rewatch on my 55 inch LCD, it looked horrible. Watching it recently on the unearthed CRT, I realized: the crushed blacks of CRT draped the makeup in inky darkness, smoothing the prosthetic seam line with shadow and obscuring the flaws with low resolution. One of the most-mocked shots is "Dark Justice"'s scene where RoboCop looks shorter than James Murphy. Watched on a CRT screen, James still looks taller than RoboCop and James' head is cut off at the top of the frame, but with the CRT screen curvature and magnification, it comes off less as a height difference and more like a fisheye lens effect, a convex perspective that sets James slightly outside the frame, outside Alex Murphy's world -- while RoboCop is trapped and isolated inside the frame. There's also the fact that on a 20 inch screen, height differences don't seem very meaningful, but the height difference between father and son is emphasized on a larger, sharper LCD screen. Of course, there is a height difference too and yes, it would be preferable if Page Fletcher had been walking on a ramp to elevate him above Anthony Lemke no matter what the angle -- but the small and concave CRT screen is why this shot didn't bother me on original broadcast -- and probably why the creators didn't flag it as a problem on playback and in editing. They were seeing it on a center-magnified CRT. But this shot has become aggravatingly distracting on LCD. Awhile ago, Archive said to me: I just think that you might be too close to this PRIME DIRECTIVES thing to see it objectively. It's like having a lousy girlfriend and making up forced excuses to explain all the bad things she does. I think there's a grain of truth there: I was remembering how PRIME DIRECTIVES looked on my old 2001 television set. On that small CRT screen, all the flaws that a modern TV emphasizes are instead concealed by the CRT dot pattern, the shallow depth of field, the center magnification, and the crushed blacks. And in rewatches, I was mostly watching PD on a 9.7 inch iPad 2, and while it doesn't have curvature or a dot pattern, it's a small display with a low resolution of 1024x768, giving the video a pixelated quality that also hid the flaws. It would be interesting to recreate the CRT look of PRIME DIRECTIVES digitally. I think that is the show that I've defended and remembered, not the version we're watching on modern TVs. PRIME DIRECTIVES was a 2000-era TV series for 2000-era CRT. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Fri Sep 06, 2024 7:42 am ----------------------------------- Regarding the closeups: the 16:9 look on a 4:3 TV with all the closeness to the actors really works for me on a 20 inch CRT television. CRT television is small and blurry (with the dot pattern masking the blur but adding no detail). Being close to the people and the faces adds immediacy and intimacy. Oh, I don´t have any problems with closeups when they´re done with purpose. What I feel weird is having the top of Wint´s skull chopped in the begining of "Dark Justice" when they´re doing a medium or general shot. I think everyone would frame the whole thing to give some space on top, so you can see every head in the shot. That´s why I think PD would have some kind of aspect ratio change during post-production. It makes zero sense to chop heads on purpose. Same with Robo´s introduction in that episode. The "Having Some Trouble?" part has the same issue: they cut the tip of Robo´s helmet, and drives me crazy. If you zoom out just a little you wouldn´t have that problem. As for other scenes, like Sara and Jimmy at OCP, the composition didn´t leave room to see something more than the actors. You could move the camera just a little as well, to one side, and you´d feel less claustrophobic. I know PD was made quick and for little bucks, but would the sets be so little that they didn´t have room to move stuff and make the shots breathe? ----------------------------------- ireactions Fri Sep 06, 2024 11:52 pm ----------------------------------- Open Matte Filming It's very possible and even probable that PRIME DIRECTIVES, beginning production in 1999, was shot open matte and originally meant to be broadcast in 4:3 until 2000 saw widescreen broadcast become very popular, at which point the open matte image was cropped for 16:9. This brings us to another area where PRIME DIRECTIVES has changed since broadcast: it's no longer seen in its original format of letterboxed widescreen with black bars at the top and bottom of the image. How Letterboxing Affects Shot Composition When reviewing the series as 16:9 video on a 4:3 CRT, the zoom level and framing of PRIME DIRECTIVES strikes me as very appropriate for this low resolution display. Zoom gets close to the actors and their characters to emphasize facial expression. But this framing plays very poorly on modern 16:9 TVs because the closeness is unnecessary for seeing expression in HD, and we have lost the letterboxing black bars. In 2001, TVs were 4:3, low resolution, and small. On CRT, the human face is generally the most compelling element on TV, as sets, costumes, and effects are obscured by motion blur and dots. The forehead and chin of the human face have the least facial expression: the eyes, cheeks, and mouth are the most critical features, so zooming in on them makes sense for 20-30 inch CRT. The Impact of Black Bars PRIME DIRECTIVES was a small 4:3 box containing an even smaller 16:9 image. The zoom was offset by the letterboxing. The presence of black bars at the top and bottom of the image created a visual buffer that provided a sense of distance and perspective on those close zooms. As a 16:9 image on a 4:3 screen, the forehead and chin cutoffs emphasized both expression and the cinematic look of the widescreen image within CRT box. Framed within the black bars, the cutoffs looked deliberate, expressive, and dramatic. Removing the Black Bars When watched today on a modern and fully widescreen TV, the closeups and cutoffs are exactly as you describe: obnoxiously claustrophobic, narratively pointless. The black bar buffer is missing; the camera now seems intrusively close, haphazardly positioned. The closeness and cutoffs no longer serve any purpose. The cutoffs do not work at all in 16:9 on a 16:9 screen. The removal of the black bars severely alters how the shot compositions are perceived. The black bars provided an onscreen frame that centered and balanced the shots with separation and focus. The cutoffs within the black bars created a sense of theatrical 16:9 cinema on a 4:3 screen. Without the black bars, the cutoffs and the cinematography now seem arbitrary and bizarre. LCD Calls for Reframing and Relighting If there were ever any sort of remastering of PRIME DIRECTIVES, I think it would be worthwhile to go back to the open matte film and see about reframing things for modern televisions, understanding that the black bar buffer is no more. One might also relight PRIME DIRECTIVES with the understanding that brighter LCD will otherwise show things that were meant to be hidden in dark CRT, and altering the focus so things that weren't in full depth of field on CRT remain in shallow depth on LCD and the original center magnification is restored. Other Edits It's also possible that re-editing might also be worthwhile, out of consideration for how CRT demands slower editing so the viewer has more time to take in detail on a low-res screen, but that time is tedious and unneeded on a high-res display -- although I wonder if that is a bridge too far. After all, I wouldn't want anyone speeding up the pacing of my beloved SLIDERS pilot, even if the slow editing for CRT isn't an asset in an HD era. I also wouldn't want anyone applying motion smoothing to the jerky ED-209 scenes of the 1987 movie. That stop motion was an incredible achievement in 1987. Demastering? Another option that would be cheaper: maybe instead of remastering PRIME DIRECTIVES, it should be demastered. Maybe the video files should be re-encoded with a shader, a CRT-style overlay to dim the colour and lighting, to distort the image with CRT screen curvature, to add a dot pattern, to reduce the depth of field of the screen. Maybe the video file should be a 4:3 video file containing the 16:9 image. This would be the authentic, original PRIME DIRECTIVES that looked fantastic on a 2001 CRT and so very bad on a 2024 LCD. It would be an interesting special feature: the PRIME DIRECTIVES CRT DEMASTERED EDITION, the third blu-ray disk in the package. That said, I might be the only person who would watch it. ShaderGlass I had to send away the CRT television once I was finished testing it with old PRIME DIRECTIVES and SLIDERS DVDs (it was a work item). But I found a free app, ShaderGlass, that lets users add a CRT-style shader to a Windows display. And on my laptop: I set my screen to a pillarboxed 640x480 resolution, played my DVD rip of "Dark Justice", applied the overlay, ShaderGlass dimmed the image of the screen, applied inky black shadows and the dot pattern, curved it into a slight fisheye, and this was once again the show I saw in 2001. It was good to once again see PRIME DIRECTIVES as I first watched it, and to appreciate why people who watch it today are seeing something so very, very different. In the end, PRIME DIRECTIVES was released to be seen in a very peculiar video format: letterboxed 16:9 widescreen on 4:3 with black bars framing the image. It was a format from a time of transition when broadcasters were drawn to the cinematic appeal of widescreen, but the majority of viewers didn't have widescreen displays yet. It's a format for TVs that aren't even manufactured anymore except for novelty nostalgia. And the letterboxed 16:9 format has not translated well to full 16:9. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:08 pm ----------------------------------- It's also possible that re-editing might also be worthwhile Oh, yeah. If you stick to what´s written, things move faster than the final product. Also it´s interesting when you do some color grading to the series. Instead of the desaturated, blue tint of the series, you have something more colorful, closer to the films. It´s interesting how things could change with a few modifications. ----------------------------------- ireactions Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:33 pm ----------------------------------- I would be very interested to see you -- you specifically -- do a fan edit with the increased saturation. Personally, I think that the near-monochrome look has a certain icy artistry that speaks to the coldness of OCP and Delta City, and it also encourages darkness and shadow to the effects, costumes, makeup and sets. That makes sense for low budget television where what can't be shown in crisp detail is implied by essential hints of detail and then framed in darkness. An official restoration for reframing and a light re-edit would be best, but fan edits are advancing all the time. If PRIME DIRECTIVES is to be watched in full 16:9 and won't receive an official remastering, it'd be interesting for fans to attempt generative fill to add some wider perspective to the shots and make up for the absence of the letterboxing-induced black bars. I remember a funny conversation with one of the creators on PRIME DIRECTIVES where I told him one of my favourite shots was when we see the lake outside Old Detroit after Murphy drove his car off a pier; then we see RoboCop's hand grabbing a railing and Murphy pulling himself out of the lake. It was so powerful and impactful and dramatic, I said. He said the shot bothered him because the RoboCop suit seemed completely dry. I said wouldn't the water have dripped off as he was climbing up the side of a flat, vertical surface with a railing at the top? He said there should have been a few drops of water on the suit and helmet. "Who would notice that?" I protested. Today on an LCD display, everyone notices that RoboCop just climbed out of a lake and is completely dry. I replayed that specific shot on the CRT television, and... the CRT image is not clear enough to show drops of water on RoboCop's suit whether they are present or not. They would blend into the light gray metal of the suit. For this made for 2001 TV project on 2001 TV, it didn't matter. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sat Sep 07, 2024 2:53 pm ----------------------------------- He said the shot bothered him because the RoboCop suit seemed completely dry. I said wouldn't the water have dripped off as he was climbing up the side of a flat, vertical surface with a railing at the top? He said there should have been a few drops of water on the suit and helmet. "Who would notice that?" I protested. Oh, yes. They put one seaweed on the suit but it´s completely dry. They should had sprayed some water on the suit to make it more believable. And yes, back then you can hide more stuff since the TVs weren´t intended for High Definition. If you put an remastered episode of "Knight Rider" or "The A-Team" and they cut to an established shot of a specific theme (I believe "Knight Rider" had a horse competition) you can see how the quality of the footage drop in these stock footage used. Same with Cesar Romero´s moustache on the 66´s Batman TV show. It wasn´t THAT obvious back then. ----------------------------------- ireactions Sun Sep 08, 2024 4:27 pm ----------------------------------- A lot of older shows have visual problems when shown on a screen that didn't exist or wasn't in common use when that older show was first made. Your descriptions of the makeup on the 60s BATMAN show and THE A-TEAM's stunt doubles and KNIGHT RIDER's stock footage are perfect examples. My favourite example in this vein is the original STAR TREK series: when watching it today on Netflix, the stunt doubles for William Shatner are bizarre because they are shown in medium shots doing all the fights, you can see their faces clearly, and they are obviously not William Shatner. It seem inexplicable to audiences today. It looked weird to me even in the 2000s when watching STAR TREK on CRT. In the 60s and even in the 70s, TVs had even blurrier CRT displays with extremely washed out colour, and had even smaller sizes. The fuzzy image meant the audiences couldn't really see medium shots clearly enough for the double's face to clear. But the modest improvements in 1990s CRT display made it very clear that it wasn't William Shatner throwing punches and kicks and it looked ridiculous. STAR TREK in some ways benefitted from extremely poor CRT presentation for a few decades. PRIME DIRECTIVES, being made in 1999 - 2000 and broadcast in 2001, was an unfortunate victim of being released only a few years before home TVs experienced an accelerated shift from full frame CRT to widescreen LCD. By 2004, LCD TVs were outselling CRT televisions and taking CRT's place in living rooms. The more widely LCD screens were adopted, the worse the reviews became for PRIME DIRECTIVES. PD, in 2001, probably only had three years of grace where STAR TREK had at least 20 years. I'm not sure if this is a point of criticism, although I have no doubt most fans here would say that it was up to the PD team to imagine their work being seen in full LCD widescreen someday, and that the original ROBOCOP in 1987 was made well enough to be enjoyable on a modern screen. I would point out that film is a much higher resolution format than CRT television in 2001 and meant for screens even bigger than the average 50 - 60 inch widescreen TV today. Fans might note that shows like QUANTUM LEAP, THE PRISONER, BATMAN (1966) and STAR TREK (1966) look great today in their HD releases and just look sharper and clearer; in contrast, PD's framing and lighting issues would not be solved even with a higher resolution and sharper video quality. I would argue that those shows were full frame and stayed in full frame while PRIME DIRECTIVES was edited and released for a very peculiar broadcast standard: letterboxed 16:9 within a square 4:3, a broadcast format with top and bottom black bars. This letterboxed broadcast format really only lasted from 2000 to maybe 2004 at which point shows were shot for widescreen to be seen in full widescreen. This shift drastically altered TV. Standard definition TV had always been viewed as a cheaper and less vivid version of theatrical films. There had been the sense that standard definition didn't need the resources of film because TV was so blurry and small that high production values were somewhat wasted there because the audience wouldn't be able to see it clearly on their home screens. PRIME DIRECTIVES was one of the last shows to be made in an era where TV only needed to be good enough for CRT. Some potential and potentially cheap solutions: maybe a hypothetical HD release of PD could use the original open matte version before the top and bottom were cut off to make it widescreen. (I don't know if the cropping was applied before they assembled it, or if that version even exists anywhere.) But a pillerboxed version of PD might work the way those other full frame shows are shown today. This might eliminate the oddities of shot compositions that were expected to be seen empty black bars above and below the image. In terms of plug and play solutions: the show could have its exposure and gamma levels adjusted throughout to make the dim scenes darker to accommodate for brighter LCD, and to apply lens correction to the entire file to recreate the CRT center magnification. The frame rate of the show could also be adjusted with motion blur added to resemble the 30fps fluidity of the original broadcast rather than the 24fps frame rate today, in order to restore how Page Fletcher's suit movements looked in the 2001 broadcast. Another solution: two strips acquire black vinyl on cardstock cut to the length of a TV set, and attach them at the top and bottom of your TV to recreate the black bars and the framing, separation and focus they provided. Of course, at this point, we might as well expect Amazon to ship us a CRT television from a junk yard with each PD purchase. I think drag and drop, plug and play solutions that are fine for fan edits, but a professional product should have scene by scene if not shot by shot adjustments, at which point they should really go back to the open matte image (again, assuming there is one) and reframe it for proper 16:9. I don't think it will happen any time soon, but I also don't know that it won't ever happen. I believe PRIME DIRECTIVES, and all RoboCop shows made under TV license by licensee studios, are now under the Amazon MGM Studios banner. They may want to someday have all the TV shows fit for an HD streaming library if they want to produce new RoboCop content in the future. If the process to clean up the cartoons and live action shows is not too expensive or time consuming, they might do it someday. I suppose the creators could have anticipated PRIME DIRECTIVES being viewed in full widescreen at some point, but I personally won't fault them for making a TV project to be seen on the TVs that were on sale at the time they made the show as opposed to TVs that, in 1999, seemed pretty far away from everyone's living rooms. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Sun Sep 08, 2024 5:27 pm ----------------------------------- I don't think it will happen any time soon, but I also don't know that it won't ever happen. I believe PRIME DIRECTIVES, and all RoboCop shows made under TV license by licensee studios, are now under the Amazon MGM Studios banner. As far as I know, the latest people to get PD´s rights is British Label 101 Films. They uploaded them for free (region blocked) on their YouTube channel, on standard definition. No plans for a HD release. Which is sad, as that Blu Ray boutique do a fine work on their products, adding special features, booklets and such. If the process to clean up the cartoons and live action shows is not too expensive or time consuming, they might do it someday. I think an AI upsacale could be possible for the cartoons, if someone could spend time and money making the conversion instead of dropping the files and set everything on default. I don´t think there would be a way to re-scan the originals, and I doubt the Marvel one have anything left from the 80´s. I know people involved on "Alpha Commando" have some material, but you can grab original cells from eBay or similar auction sites (I have one). As for the live action ones, don´t know. The AI upscale on The Series UK Blu Ray edition was hated by a bunch of people (haven´t seen it myself, but a big factor could be the source material, as the 94 show was edited on video instead of film). There´s a HD upscale of PD out there, and while I can see some problems of background faces, for the most part it looks pretty good. The DVDs, while not on HD, had a good image quality, unlike the previous TV show, which looked blurred and with washed colors, so I think that helps making an artificial upgrade. I´m not sure if PD had everything edit on a way that could be scanned and restored into HD, but I don´t think anybody would took their time (and money) to give the miniseries a try. ----------------------------------- ireactions Sun Sep 08, 2024 6:11 pm ----------------------------------- I've seen parts of 4K upscale of PRIME DIRECTIVES and I think it looks technically better but artistically worse. PD actually benefits from being downscaled to be blurrier and darker via a CRT-style screen shader. 4K unfortunately emphasizes and deepens all the visual problems of PD going from letterboxed 16:9 to full 16:9 whether it's shot compositions not meant for the format or effects not designed for the resolution. One amusing exercise: I watched the 4K upscale of the final scenes of "Crash & Burn" where Murphy's helmet is off. The prosthetic on Fletcher's head looks terrible in 4K. I activated the ShaderGlass CRT shader which downscaled the image with CRT dimming and dots, making the upscale look like 480i. Instantly, the helmetless makeup looked blended and TV-adequate. I've watched some of the 'professional' upscales of THE SERIES. The problem: they have set the upscaling too aggressively to smooth out every jagged edge and all the noise of digital videotape and the grain of the original film stock. AI upscaling has its uses, but it can be grossly misapplied. The PRIME DIRECTIVES fan upscale looks (technically) good to me because Owen Davies, the editor, has a good process of de-telecining the DVD files to get the full resolution possible. After the HD upscale, he has reapplied film grain. As someone who has done some AI upscaling work, I find that AI upscaling is best when applied modestly, and when the original 'flaws' of the base file are partially maintained. Bicubic scaling is not always great, creating blockiness, jagged edges and an unpleasant blurriness. AI upscaling may make things superficially sharper, but it also creates an oversmooth, waxy look to all textures, trading in blockiness for uniform smoothing. The TRUE LIES 4K release has this problem, and also has the uncanny valley effect of objects in motion staying sharp without motion blur, which the human eye finds unnatural. It's important to add a layer of film grain afterwards to offset the smoothing and to avoid oversharpening. In addition, a lot of 480i material is best upscaled modestly. With current technology, the goal of making a 480i file look like a real 4K image can sometimes be an overreach. It is often better to just aim for making a 480i file presentable on an HD screen. The goal for me is to diminish the distractions (blockiness, jagged edges, blurriness) while accepting that the upscaled file will still obviously be SD -- just scaled more forgivingly. I feel Owen Davies did a good job of meeting that mark with PRIME DIRECTIVES and the people doing the SERIES upscales completely missed it. When upscaling episodes of SLIDERS, my wish has not been to make it look like a new film transfer, just to make the scaling unintrusive so I can enjoy the story. I've also done some AI cleanup on digital scans of theatrical prints for the original STAR WARS trilogy. My goal there wasn't even to upscale, but to address the incredibly heavy levels of grain on those films. And my wish wasn't to remove all the grain, but to just make it consistent across the movie instead of seeing it go from lightly grainy to almost like static in different shots. Again, this was to produce something where I would get used to the image and then enjoy the story. In terms of PRIME DIRECTIVES... while the DVD is indeed a decent quality SD file, it doesn't give us a lot of options for making the intended-for-letterbox framing look more at home on a full widescreen TV. It'd be interesting if generative fill could add the top and bottom back someday for a pillarboxed presentation. I think there are plug and play solutions to some of PD's issues with modern TVs, and there might be more as technology advances that enable Amazon and MGM to just spend a week or two on a show like PD as opposed to months or years. ----------------------------------- Archive Sun Sep 08, 2024 8:14 pm ----------------------------------- I think everyone would frame the whole thing to give some space on top, so you can see every head in the shot. That´s why I think PD would have some kind of aspect ratio change during post-production. It makes zero sense to chop heads on purpose. Checked out Dark Justice a bit just now and wow, hadn't really thought about it before but yeah, everything is definitely zoomed in. Very rarely is there any kind of head space above people and usually they are just cut at the top. It's all very claustrophobic. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Mon Sep 09, 2024 8:31 am ----------------------------------- Checked out Dark Justice a bit just now and wow, hadn't really thought about it before but yeah, everything is definitely zoomed in. Yeah. I find it hard to believe it was done as a stylistic choice. And, as I said earlier, I could even believe that if they wanted to hide something from the sets, but it happens in outdoors scenes (the begining of Dark Justice has the same problem). As I do edits for fun, I noticed it more and more, and that makes me nervous :lol: I did test with The Bombz scene and you could reframe some of the stuff, since they´re on a black, blurry background in most of the shots. And having some space above heads makes things breathe a little. Not too much, since a bunch of shots are the star´s faces, but... Very rarely is there any kind of head space above people and usually they are just cut at the top. It's all very claustrophobic. I really noticed on Cable´s talk with Jimmy at his office. Lemke´s head is chopped even in wide shots, which makes zero sense. If PD was made as open matte, they could take that footage and reframe it for widescreen, and you could avoid that problem. It feels like the transition from TV´s aspect to widescreen in The Series, where in a bunch of scenes they could move the frame a little to avoid that problem as well. One amusing exercise: I watched the 4K upscale of the final scenes of "Crash & Burn" where Murphy's helmet is off. The prosthetic on Fletcher's head looks terrible in 4K. I activated the ShaderGlass CRT shader which downscaled the image with CRT dimming and dots, making the upscale look like 480i. Instantly, the helmetless makeup looked blended and TV-adequate. . My main problem with the makeup is the fact they could have done it better. Here´s the explanation: back then, the excuse for the makeup change was time (and money, but they admited they couldn´t film with Fletcher expending hours in the makeup chair). PD was a rushed production. I know. But, with these elements in mind, I´d try to schedule a "make up" day: check all the places we need to film Fletcher (and Wint) helmetless; give the makeup guy time to make it good, and film all these scenes over a day. So you don´t have to worry about that anymore. Don´t know, maybe they´d have trouble with some locations (I don´t know if they got some only for a day or what), but as far as I know, the RoboChambers (both Murphy and Cable) were sets, so I assume they´d have access to them without any big problem. And then, the makeup itself. I talked briefly with the guy who did it: he didn´t have any casts of the actors, and had to apply the bald parts and such in 30 minutes. Then, as he told me, he had to go back home, as the production didn´t have the money to have him on set :lol: Plus, the back of the head was... bland. I meant, they used the upper back of the head from the same molds of the films/previous TV shows (sans the wires) and slapped the lower back of the helmet to complete it. Which is "clever" when on budget but... Why they didn´t add something on the sides? I meant, they could add the "ears" from the helmet on it, so it´d have some detail that resembled the helmetless Murphy from previous productions. The jaw part didn´t have any kind of detail as well. They could do something with that too. And they could find a way to make the skin less flat, putting a little bit more above the ears, like in the film, adding more of the back piece on the sides, to trying to make that ilusion possible. I can understand why they were thinking on SD back then, because we didn´t have 4K in early 2000´s, but I´d try to give Fletcher´s some rubbery black neck piece instead of cutting the neck from RoboCop´s helmet and putting some black fabric on the front. Even with SD, DVD´s looked way better than broadcast television, so they could think it´d be visible... The PRIME DIRECTIVES fan upscale looks (technically) good to me because Owen Davies, the editor, has a good process of de-telecining the DVD files to get the full resolution possible. After the HD upscale, he has reapplied film grain. I think he did a superb work with it, considering he had to work with DVD instead of some masters or anything that would give him more data to work with. And I don´t have any issues with PD on HD, it looks good and sharp. The problem, at the end, are production issues. Which is a shame. I still believe PD had a chance to be a beloved production if it could be polished in some form. If you stick with what´s written, scenes flow faster from one scene to another. If you crank the colors, if feels less dull. Now there´s an opportunity to isolate vocals, so you could avoid the western trumpet, or even you could re-score it with something closer to Poledouris work. Even you could cheat Fletcher´s height cutting some seconds of some of the scenes where he´s with taller actors. Of course you´d still have the clunky movements and other issues, but you can change stuff and try to stick with the original idea to make less "offensive" to others. Action scenes tend to be quicker and way shorter when you cut the reused footage, slomo parts* and other things, which isn´t a big problem when you notice the first film had around 15 minutes of action. Yes, the scifi Legion virus would need more rewrites, but you could try to make it more ambiguous and cut the over the top parts. You could lift some The Series footage to do stablishing shots, something this miniseries needs. And you could make Fletcher´s sound more natural. I did tests. It kinda works :D Instead. Of. The. Pauses. He. Does. With. Each. Word. He. Says, you could accelerate the pauses and dialogue to change the way he talks. "Technology is your friend", they said. I have a test of the Robochamber scene after he was beaten by Bone Machine, and he talks without pauses. Plus, I took off a bunch of the blinking to make him more "robotic". Upgrades could be made. * I dislike slomo myself. I don´t HATE it, and I think if it´s used well, could be cool. Yesterday I tried to watch Snyder´s Justice Leage and he overuses slow motion too much it becames a joke. When you put that for the majority of the footage, it doesn´t have a purpose anymore. And it feels less impactful. ----------------------------------- ireactions Mon Sep 09, 2024 2:27 pm ----------------------------------- My main problem with the makeup is the fact they could have done it better. Here´s the explanation: back then, the excuse for the makeup change was time (and money, but they admited they couldn´t film with Fletcher expending hours in the makeup chair). PD was a rushed production. I know. But, with these elements in mind, I´d try to schedule a "make up" day: check all the places we need to film Fletcher (and Wint) helmetless; give the makeup guy time to make it good, and film all these scenes over a day. So you don´t have to worry about that anymore. And then, the makeup itself. I talked briefly with the guy who did it: he didn´t have any casts of the actors, and had to apply the bald parts and such in 30 minutes. Then, as he told me, he had to go back home, as the production didn´t have the money to have him on set :lol: I can understand why they were thinking on SD back then, because we didn´t have 4K in early 2000´s, but I´d try to give Fletcher´s some rubbery black neck piece instead of cutting the neck from RoboCop´s helmet and putting some black fabric on the front. Even with SD, DVD´s looked way better than broadcast television, so they could think it´d be visible... I like your idea of filming all the makeup scenes in one day. Even on DVD, the prosthetic problems are were not visible when I played the disc on a CRT television. The fact that the prosthetic is too big and improperly sized to Fletcher's head (due to the lack of cast) is hidden by the darker screen and shadows which add contours to make Fletcher's head seem smaller. I even dug out an old HDMI-to-composite cable and used it with my laptop to play the 4K upscale of the "Crash & Burn" helmet scenes, and the makeup problems were still masked and polished by the low-resolution screen. I imagine that PD was, while shot on film, transferred to digital videotape and the footage reviewed and edited on CRT monitors where it looked fine, adequate, good enough for TV. And before 2004, the approach to television was to not worry about flaws that wouldn't show up on a standard definition TV screen. The helmetless makeup seems to be at least partially the result of that. The other issue, as you established: makeup artist David Scott didn't have a headcast for Page Fletcher to work with in order to prepare the prosthetics in advance. I've seen Scott's work on some RESIDENT EVIL movies and while those films were terrible, Scott's makeup effects were terrific and deserved a better movie. The lack of a headcast on PRIME DIRECTIVES meant that Scott was guessing and improvising without precise measurements. From what I can tell -- and we are entering the realm of theory here -- Fireworks Entertainment refused to fly Page Fletcher to Toronto for pre-production, and would only have him present for brief rehearsals and then filming. As a result, the crew weren't able to get his headcast, couldn't get his measurements, and this created further problems down the line, and not only with prosthetics. Without measurements, the RoboCop suit couldn't be adjusted in advance for Fletcher's height and build, nor could a new suit be built for him. Instead, Rob Bottin was asked to send over an already existing set of suits. When it arrived and didn't fit, the PD crew had to hack away at the legs so Fletcher could put it on. Allegedly, Bottin was enraged when the suits were returned afterwards. In contrast, a new suit was made for Maurice Dean Wint with the exterior built from the original RoboCop molds, but the interiors sized to Wint's measurements. The fact that Maurice Dean Wint's measurements were taken but Page Fletcher's were not suggests to me: Fireworks was willing to have Wint present for pre-production because Wint lived in or near Toronto and they didn't have to pay for transport and accommodation. As a result, production had the measurements needed to make a custom suit for Wint. Meanwhile, Fletcher had to wear the old suits from the original films. Wint's suit was much lighter than Fletcher's, which is why Wint's movements are so capable, while Fletcher was carrying so much extra weight in comparison. A lot of people blame Julian Grant and that's fine, but I would suggest that Fireworks Entertainment's stingy, tight-fisted attitude to budgeting was where all these problems started... and maybe Fireworks took the view that nothing needed to be that great for SD television. Certainly, the low budget for PD meant the series quickly became profitable after international broadcast and distribution sales. I'm told that some people working on PD earned enough money to basically go on vacation for 10 years because of how well it did... which probably helps them stay good-humoured and amused by how much fans hate their work. However, the lack of investment at the start meant that PD shined on CRT television but visually imploded on LCD a mere three years after its first 2001 broadcast, when LCD started to outsell CRT. I had noticed that in 2001, the majority of the reviews were positive: The Toronto Star, Sci-Fi Weekly, Ain't It Cool News and other genre outlets all rated PRIME DIRECTIVES highly. Anecdotally, I remember my classmates at school talking about how they were thrilled by how RoboCop and RoboCable were firing their Auto-9s at each other, and a teacher saying he saw it and didn't understand why two robots were shooting at each other so pointlessly as the bullets didn't seem to do any damage. My classmates informed the teacher that they were cyborgs, not robots, and that the image of two bulletproof cyborgs shooting at each other is beautiful and doesn't need to make sense. As an experiment, I was hypercritical of PD at school. I described how offended I was with the "Crash and Burn" error where Murphy orders Ann to "Try not to hurt them too badly" regarding the OCP guards only for Ann to murder two of them and for Murphy to comment, "Nice moves." (I was told that this was a mistake where the creators wanted to liven up the action, and didn't realize the mistake until editing.) My classmates told me, "You're such a buzzkill. That was cool," which made me wonder what kinds of sociopaths were in the student body. I claimed that I found "Crash and Burn" boring as a relentless walk up a flight of stairs. I was told, "That scared the shit out of me! Even if RoboCop beats RoboCable, that Legion thing is going to end them. Even if they stop Legion, OCP still wants them all dead. I thought the building was going to kill them all." The structure of "Crash and Burn" created so many possible outcomes of doom that my classmates were able to overlook the restricted, low-budget situation. But beginning in 2004, there seemed to be a massive downturn in PD's reception with negative review upon negative review. People who spoke well of the series in 2001 seemed to reappraise and despite it after 2004. I think it likely that all reviews from 2004-onward were written after viewing the series on LCD. I'm 90 percent sure that all my classmates from 2001 would rewatch PRIME DIRECTIVES now on a massive, quantum dot enabled, superbright television and declare that it looks terrible and they were too young to see how bad it was back in 2001. But they would have seen it on CRT. I still believe PD had a chance to be a beloved production if it could be polished in some form. If you stick with what´s written, scenes flow faster from one scene to another. If you crank the colors, if feels less dull. Now there´s an opportunity to isolate vocals, so you could avoid the western trumpet, or even you could re-score it with something closer to Poledouris work. Even you could cheat Fletcher´s height cutting some seconds of some of the scenes where he´s with taller actors. Of course you´d still have the clunky movements and other issues, but you can change stuff and try to stick with the original idea to make less "offensive" to others. Action scenes tend to be quicker and way shorter when you cut the reused footage, slomo parts* and other things, which isn´t a big problem when you notice the first film had around 15 minutes of action. Yes, the scifi Legion virus would need more rewrites, but you could try to make it more ambiguous and cut the over the top parts. You could lift some The Series footage to do stablishing shots, something this miniseries needs. And you could make Fletcher´s sound more natural. I did tests. It kinda works :D Instead. Of. The. Pauses. He. Does. With. Each. Word. He. Says, you could accelerate the pauses and dialogue to change the way he talks. "Technology is your friend", they said. I have a test of the Robochamber scene after he was beaten by Bone Machine, and he talks without pauses. Plus, I took off a bunch of the blinking to make him more "robotic". Upgrades could be made. I love fan edits. But I think fan edits, when they work, are effective and successful because the fan editor actually enjoys what they're editing -- the fan edit is to accomplish what the original creator achieved but was prevented from delivering or to restore something that was lost after the project was completed. For example: there are SILENT HILL fan edits that remove all the Sean Bean scenes, scenes that director Christoph Gans was forced to add by the studio but didn't actually want included. The fan edits are restoring Gans' vision for the film, and let the fans enjoy the excellence Gans achieved without the distractions he was made to include. The DESPECIALIZED versions of STAR WARS are restoring the original 70s and 80s era special effects of STAR WARS to the HD versions of the movies. None of these edits are opposed to the original work; they're trying to restore what the director shot but couldn't include, or restore what was already there on original release but lost in later releases. But what you are describing is alteration to the point of replacement. If you are opposed to the colour timing, the Norman Orenstein Western-styled score, the Legion biotechnology virus (which is already ambiguous), the action sequences, and you even want to alter Page Fletcher's performance to replace his line deliveries and intonations and pacing, it'd probably be best to do something original which would take less time. You've said you think your fan edit will take you until 2050 to make. You also said you enjoyed the original PRIME DIRECTIVES scripts, the early drafts before Fireworks had the writers reduce Parts 3 - 4 to a more traditional action-oriented direction. If you still have those scripts, you might create a screenplay or novelization version with illustrations for key moments. If you need to learn how to draw to accomplish that... it still probably wouldn't take you 26 years. I'm hoping to do a fan demastering of PRIME DIRECTIVES: changing the 24 FPS frame rate to CRT 30 FPS, darken the image back to CRT crushed blacks, apply a CRT shader and lens curvature, and then re-encode the files. This will restore the show that was broadcast in 2001 on SPACE and the Sci-Fi Channel, a series that I really enjoyed and appreciated. I'm not trying to change PRIME DIRECTIVES to something else; I'm trying to put it back where it was: within a CRT television screen. This is me working on something I really like, and it won't take 26 years to finish. If you're more a fan of the scripts than of the show, maybe your fan edit should be with the scripts and not what was filmed. ----------------------------------- ChAnOoD Mon Sep 09, 2024 3:21 pm ----------------------------------- The other issue, as you established: makeup artist David Scott didn't have a headcast for Page Fletcher to work with in order to prepare the prosthetics in advance. I've seen Scott's work on some RESIDENT EVIL movies and while those films were terrible, Scott's makeup effects were terrific and deserved a better movie. The lack of a headcast on PRIME DIRECTIVES meant that Scott was guessing and improvising without precise measurements. Oh, yeah. I´m not talking bad about the artist himself, he just didn´t have the time or tools to make that work. And I assume the back of Murphy´s head without the helmet would be a piece made by Bottin´s studio. That, or he had to mix these two pieces from previous productions into a fiberglass shell to apply. Certainly, the low budget for PD meant the series quickly became profitable international broadcast and distribution sales. I'm told that some people working on PD earned enough money to basically go on vacation for 10 years because of how well it did... which probably helps them stay good-humoured and amused by how much fans hate their work. While a bunch of people considers PD a "failure" when talking about profits, it seems it wasn´t the case. With the different releases all over the world I think it made enough money. And it seems there´s some kind of interest on it (there are some new reviews and even interviews with the makers that had a lot of interest from viewers online). I described how offended I was with the "Crash and Burn" error where Murphy orders Ann to "Try not to hurt them too badly" regarding the OCP guards only for Ann to murder two of them and for Murphy to comment, "Nice moves." (I was told that this was a mistake where the creators wanted to liven up the action, and didn't realize the mistake until editing.) I can see that as a goof made with the lack of time to rewrite the second half of the miniseries. As we talked before, the first half seemed more focused because, well, they didn´t have to rewrite much if you compared it with the more cyberpunk-ish second half (which scared Fireworks). I love fan edits. But I think fan edits, when they work, are effective and successful because the fan editor actually enjoys what they're editing -- the fan edit is to accomplish what the original creator achieved but was prevented from delivering or to restore something that was lost after the project was completed. I like Prime Directives for what it is. I really think about it like an "Elseworlds" story, something that happens on comics from time to time: authors have some freedom to toy with the character, add their own spin, modified some stuff and such. But I can see some of the stuff people don´t like about it. So, as a guy who likes to edit, for fun, I find interesting when you can change things and make it look different. I´ve been taking serious films or shows and transform them into comedies, or giving a popular character a mood similar to other productions from its past. With that in mind, and knowing what the writers tried to do, I think an edit where you follow the plot as it was written (that´s moving and merging scenes, and making Robo talk as he talks as written, which didn´t have beats each word) could be an interesting thing to watch. Again, like an "Elsewords", or a "What if". What would PD look if it has a "Writer´s Cut" instead of what we got? The core stuff would be there, but the presentation would be a little bit different. It´s an interesting work and I think an interesting watch. For example, the Bombz scene. I did several tests over the years. The latest was done not too much ago, and the whole Cable/Murphy meeting takes 2 or 3 minutes since the first shot of footage. They added more text and, funny enough, you can see they re-edited the thing differently at the last second, because you can put together some of the parts with the finished edit and make it look like there isn´t any jump over the scenes. Plus, recoloring some of the scenes made the (plug-in) sparks in some scenes less artificial (and you could enhance things if you add some brightness over the armor to make reflections, etc). The DESPECIALIZED versions of STAR WARS are restoring the original 70s and 80s era special effects of STAR WARS to the HD versions of the movies. That´s an off-topic discussion but Fox needs to release the original, unaltered films on a official release (and not with lesser quality Laser Disc rips as they did on DVD back then). I'm not trying to change PRIME DIRECTIVES to something else; I'm trying to put it back where it was: within a CRT television screen. This is me working on something I really like, and it won't take 26 years to finish. I think the point I was trying to make is to know is how much different the same footage could be presented, and what if it went closer to the stuff the writers did (and the previous iterations). And, unlike Star Wars, everyone can watch PD on it´s original format. I´ve been watching some of the fan edit communities and I think there are brilliant ideas on some editors. Some put blood (not really I hope), sweat and tears to bring a movie or show you know with a different twist, and it´s an interesting exercice. Some worked on the original RoboCop film, redoing special effects like Dick Jones´ fall or recreating ED-209 as a digital creature. Did I think they make the film better? Nopes. It´s interesting to watch, even if you see there´s no need for it? Yup. Others worked or are working on the sequels, recoloring Robo´s blue armor into the metallic tone of the original, putting Poledouris back on RoboCop 2 and all these things. Again, they´re retelling the same thing, with their own spin. Some tried to make Schumacher´s Batman films into something closer to Tim Burton´s style. There´s a guy who transformed "The Batman" into a TV show. That´s interesting as well. Again, they´re not trying to be the official stuff, they want to make their own spin on it. Some of the Star Wars films, specially the prequels or the post-Jedi films, had edits in where some dudes added, changed and cut things, to the point they could added backgrounds more fitted to the story, plot or modified stuff while trying to make sense to the whole project. There are "Grindhouse" versions of films, making these look like an explotation film from the 70´s! Also, it doesn´t mean they didn´t like the original stuff (but I have my doubts with Star Wars. Fandom in general could be really hostile there :lol:). Hell, I´d like to see some "alternative versions" of my favorite movies if you find out the person who did that put his/her heart making it (I´ve tried to watch one of the "osbcure" ones but the editing skills weren´t there). I'm hoping to do a fan demastering of PRIME DIRECTIVES: changing the 24 FPS frame rate to CRT 30 FPS, darken the image back to CRT crushed blacks, apply a CRT shader and lens curvature, and then re-encode the files. This will restore the show that was broadcast in 2001 on SPACE and the Sci-Fi Channel, a series that I really enjoyed and appreciated. And I´d be happy to take a look to it. 4:3 and blurry images made me nostalgic. And thinking about 4:3 again... Checked out Dark Justice a bit just now and wow, hadn't really thought about it before but yeah, everything is definitely zoomed in. Did every broadcasted emision of Prime Directives come in widescreen? I remember on their website back then they claimed the SCI-FI Channel broadcast would be in Widescreen. And yes, it had black bars on top and bottom. Does that mean that there was an open matte version on TVs in 2001? It´d be interesting to find something about the original aspect ratio...