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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
 
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7026
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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  Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:10 am |
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| DOUBLE POST MADNESS : | You know what, I reread this thread for the first time since I wrote it and I have to pat myself on the back - it was a pretty entertaining read  |
Don't bust your arm, man. 
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I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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Officer Harvey
Metro West District, Detroit Police Department, OCP
Joined: 14 Jun 2010
Post Count: 69
Comment: I'm not in a Labor Union. I'm a Police Officer. I Don't Strike.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:13 am |
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Besides the campy approach to Murphy, I was annoyed that they never really wrapped up the subplot with Murphy and his family. We're supposed to assume that he permenently left them behind but he still thinks of them. An even bigger plothole was that they never explain what happened to the Old Man. We know the real world explanation is that the actor didn't want to come back and lord knows I can't blame him. If they were going to get rid of the Old Man, at least explain where he went off to to tie up loose ends. But the property has a bad habit of leaving loose ends.
I thought the Rehabs were an over-the-top addition, and felt like they were just thrown in there just to add to the 'blockbuster' feel of the movie. I despised the tone of the movie period, Orion decided to cave in to children's interests and basically kill the franchise for the dollar bill. Honestly, 2 wasn't that great either but it at least still had the adult overtunes and cult moments. 3 was just a merchandise tie-in and buried any momentum the character gained from the first movie that 2 didn't get.
The little kid character was dumb, pretty much the whole movie was dumb. It came across as trying too hard at getting a family audience thus it was very cheesy and over-the-top. I thought a good portion of Frank Miller's ideas were retarded anyway and never thought he was a good choice to replace Miner and Neuminer. He is very cynical and negative and it came off in 2 and 3 (although toned down for the latter) no matter how hard Orion tried to alter. A cynic is the last one you want writing for a character that is ultimately about hope.
I felt bad for Basil Poledouris who came back to score this film but sadly his musical talents can't even salvage the entire project.
Referencing 2 again real quick, I can see why the studio butchered his original script and ideas because they SUCKED. The only things I got a kick out of in Miller's original draft were the shitload of gunfights, end. The end result was better than what he had written. 3, what was the point of reusing Miller's ideas if they weren't even good in the first place??? If they were going to do another one, why not just do an original story if you are only going to mess with material that you clearly hate? How logical is that??? No wonder Orion's gone.
3 could've been a chance for the franchise to recover after the weak (compared to the original) 2 but instead was exploited for money and only paved the way for worse things to come, namely the Series that succeeded it with its' kid tone and subsequently the property being seen insultingly as useful bantha fodder for lackluster miniseries (PD) and animated series (AC).
If they are going to continue taking this character as a joke, I'll just stick to the comic books. They've come the closest to getting it right and continue to get better over time, namely the Dynamite series.
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KidGoesWild
L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 665
Comment: I type it, you think it
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:46 am |
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| Officer Harvey : | | Besides the campy approach to Murphy, I was annoyed that they never really wrapped up the subplot with Murphy and his family. |
Actually it was one of the things that didnt bother me. He moved on a long time ago, R3 should be past that. We know from R2 that he realized that hed be doing more damage than good by being with them ir staying in touch with them. I think its nice that R3 at least showed him still thinking about them
| Quote: | | An even bigger plothole was that they never explain what happened to the Old Man. We know the real world explanation is that the actor didn't want to come back and lord knows I can't blame him. If they were going to get rid of the Old Man, at least explain where he went off to to tie up loose ends. But the property has a bad habit of leaving loose ends. |
Exactly. The Old Man was equivalent to Star Wars' Emperor. When I first saw R2 I was ecstatic that it had na open ending and couldnt wait to see how they will finally get him. Well, surprise, surprise
| Quote: | | I thought the Rehabs were an over-the-top addition, and felt like they were just thrown in there just to add to the 'blockbuster' feel of the movie. |
I know, they were like a weak Stormtrooper imitation. Faceless and not so intellligent
| Quote: | | I thought a good portion of Frank Miller's ideas were retarded anyway and never thought he was a good choice to replace Miner and Neuminer. |
Actually I disagree. I think the ideas that Neumeier and Miner had for the sequels were outright ridiculous and plain dumb. Its one of those very, very few instances where I was happy that the original makers did not return. Miller is a good writer, what happened with R3 I think is simply Dekker's rewrites. Dekker to this day remains the biggest fan of the movie
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7026
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:07 pm |
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| KidGoesWild : | | Actually I disagree. I think the ideas that Neumeier and Miner had for the sequels were outright ridiculous and plain dumb. Its one of those very, very few instances where I was happy that the original makers did not return. Miller is a good writer, what happened with R3 I think is simply Dekker's rewrites. Dekker to this day remains the biggest fan of the movie |
Bah, I disagree with that disagreement - I think some of their ideas were quite interesting. Hell, if you've seen the early shit Miller wrote up, you'd say the same thing, because his early draft/story is also inane, psychotic, and ultimately unfilmable.
I preferred Neumeier and Miner's base ideas over Miller's, mainly because they had more intriguing facets to them, and ultimately seemed more complex and interesting. But indeed, they too were insanely wacky and un-doable. But for the most part, it could easily have been worked into something pretty good. If they were able to make Miller's shit into something filmable, sure. Could it have been better than Miller's ideas? Possibly. Again, it would at least have been different and a little more intriguing, at least to me. Of course obstinacy on both the writers and the studios part prevented anything being made out of Neumeier and Miner's ideas. Still, to this day, I would have liked to see what they could have done.
As for Miller, I won't say his ideas were 'retarded', that's a bit harsh for me. They were crazy and childish in some respects, but that's just how the guy is with his writing it seems. Plus him being a cynic is true, and it shows in his storytelling. Doesn't make him a bad writer, but for a base story and character like RoboCop, perhaps he was not the most ideal choice. He did an alright job, I won't say he was the best choice to secede Neumeier and Miner period, but I guess was probably the best to do so under the circumstances. Nonetheless, as KGW said, he can't be held fully responsible for R3.
I never did like the 'throw-away' attitude with regards the Old Man, but that's just one of a couple of small things buried under the handful of big things I dislike about R3.
Overall, Harvey said it, MGM screwed with the whole atmosphere of the movie, toning it into something that the original was not; it destroyed the 'feel' the original film established. R2 at least kept that tone and continued the atmosphere of the first, and thus I will always consider it the superior sequel, despite Miller's own wacky, over-negative stamp on it, among other, considerably smaller, faults.
R3 is fail, no question about that. They brought in a sequel that disregarded almost anything good or even noteworthy about the universe and style the original film created. It shows a film that is in my view not a RoboCop film but just a film with RoboCop in it. It just was not in the same vein, and it's clear it didn't try to be. And that's what shows more than anything in the final analysis.
_________________
I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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Archive
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Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Post Count: 6545
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:59 pm |
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| KidGoesWild : | | I think the ideas that Neumeier and Miner had for the sequels were outright ridiculous and plain dumb. |
It was a very early draft so it is uncertain in what direction the final script would have taken. Overall, the idea of zapping Robo into the future and ditching all the characters from the first movie is provoking, ballsy, and could have turned out really bad or perhaps a very interesting sequel.
The problem with playing it safe with a sequel is that there's too much we have already seen and not enough NEW stuff to please the viewer. I really like Robo2 but we can't argue that characters like Reed and Lewis served their purpose in the first movie but got redundant in the sequels.
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KidGoesWild
L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 665
Comment: I type it, you think it
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:24 am |
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| Stan The Man : |
Bah, I disagree with that disagreement - I think some of their ideas were quite interesting. |
I remember hearing about Corporate Wars for the first time and thinking its a hoax, that its some kind of a joke made up by the internet and that in no way it could be legit. But later on when I found out I was chocked. I couldnt believe Neumeier, a guy who co-wrote such great, serious and deep sory as RoboCop would even think about a concept that to me sounded like a fanfic from a 10 year old. It seemed as ridiculous and unfitting as Highlander II to Highlander. Then as years went by, I realized that script plays a huge part of course, but not quite as bug as I thought in the overall scheme of things. Ultimately, its more about how its presented and portrayed through the eye and the vision of the director. Robocop could have really end up as a cheesy 80s robot movie, but with Verhoeven's unique personality and 100% serious take on the story it became a classic it is today. Same goes for Alien, which was ultimately just another 70s space monster movie. With unique vision and serious approach the script can turn into a truly unique vision. Same script can spawn 2 completely different movies. My point is that Verhoeven is really the person that I would call a mastermind behind RoboCop if I could point out just one guy. And later on when Starship Troopers came out (which I realy didnt like and call Beverly Hills 90210 in space), I could now see how Neumeier ability to write something that , well, wouldnt have much quality I would say.
| Archive : | | KidGoesWild : | | I think the ideas that Neumeier and Miner had for the sequels were outright ridiculous and plain dumb. |
It was a very early draft so it is uncertain in what direction the final script would have taken. Overall, the idea of zapping Robo into the future and ditching all the characters from the first movie is provoking, ballsy, and could have turned out really bad or perhaps a very interesting sequel. |
Its is ballsy and provoking but theyre not often good qualities. Look at the track records of sequels. If youre doing a full 180 with the story and do anything but what the audience wanted to see and turning the entire thing into something barely identifiable with what youve seen, its not good. Like Terminator Salvation for example. Instead of permanently dark future with constant battles and rat eating, starving refugees in hideouts, and Blade Runnerish constructions and machines, we got a bright Mad Max type of a movie with clean and well equipped human army, Power Ranger type villains, hybrids and Office like buildings for terminators, and all kinds of thing that dont belong there.
I think the mix of both is great, like with T2 for example, but not something so unrelated. RoboCop, despite being a satire, was heavily grounded in reality. It was one of the most realistically portrayed scifi movies ever. It felt like its our reality, like the characters are so real and identifiable. It was a real world with real people and felt so real and low key in its futuristic portrayal that the scifi elements like ED and Robo sunk in and felt real too. Robocop being dusted and waking up in some distant armageddonish future is just utterly silly IMO and going against what RoboCop had done and was.
| Quote: | | The problem with playing it safe with a sequel is that there's too much we have already seen and not enough NEW stuff to please the viewer. I really like Robo2 but we can't argue that characters like Reed and Lewis served their purpose in the first movie but got redundant in the sequels. |
I completely disagree. I think once you get attached to the characters you wanna see them, you feel more comfortable then. The first movie takes its time and works hard for you to get attached and sink into this world and get to know it and the people in it. Its good to see the sequel being something new and different , but also being a natural extension and continuation of the story. I wanted to see Han Solo, Leia, Chewie and others in Episode V. I was attached to them. Luke alone wouldnt do it for me. Thats one of the reasons why prequels didnt work, it was a different setting with different characters save one, there was no connection this way. Same like with Corporate Wars
| Quote: | | Hell, if you've seen the early shit Miller wrote up, you'd say the same thing, |
Well to be honest Im not familiar with the early script
| Quote: | | I won't say he was the best choice to secede Neumeier and Miner period |
I disagree. I think it was terrific of Orion to pick a well known and acllaimed writer (even if a comic writer) instead of some unknown
| Quote: | | Overall, Harvey said it, MGM screwed with the whole atmosphere of the movie, toning it into something that the original was not; it destroyed the 'feel' the original film established. |
And it ultimately did the opposite of what Verhoeven wanted - it went over the top with Robo (flying, exchanging arms, robotic behavior), presented characters as Hollywood starlets (Lewis' goldie locks) and presented cartoony characters (CEO, Ninja droids) and loads of stereotypes, as pointed out in this thread
| Quote: | | It shows a film that is in my view not a RoboCop film but just a film with RoboCop in it |
And not even that, since RoboCop doesnt act like the robo from the other 2 movies at all.
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7026
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:40 pm |
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Again, we can't say what a finished 'Corporate Wars' would have been like - I've always said it's main problem was indeed the setting, and that it's base story, re-worked, could still have been pretty good. I actually have a feeling it could have been more similar to it's closest final form, the Series pilot episode - Which kept several of Corporate Wars' elements yet was more contemporary with the timeline of R1 (sorta). And keeping the timeline close would allow the characters to stay, etc. Outside of that, the base story had several avenues that I would have liked to seen/explore in a RoboCop film, but again that's just me.
Wacky as CW is, it is just a first draft. The original drafts of Robo's script had stuff that was also very different with what we got as a finished product. Same for R2. A good example of an 'early version' R2 would be Miller's RoboCop comic, if you would like a reference.
All of this stuff about Corporate Wars I've posted numerous times, so I won't repeat myself further on the subject. If you are interested about it, you may want to read my Corporate Wars topic. Otherwise, I think it's kinda off-topic, so lets move on.
| KidGoesWild : | | I disagree. I think it was terrific of Orion to pick a well known and acllaimed writer (even if a comic writer) instead of some unknown. |
Terrific of Orion to hire a writer that they second-guessed, underrated, and 'helped' the whole time? I guess so, heh. But as I said, Miller did fine considering.
Ahem, again, moving on -
| KGW : | | Me : | | It shows a film that is in my view not a RoboCop film but just a film with RoboCop in it |
And not even that, since RoboCop doesnt act like the robo from the other 2 movies at all. |
Even if he did, the dynamic of the film wasn't the same. Good as Weller was, I don't think he could have improved R3 from what it was any, at least by himself. The film itself went against the world of the original, even if you take RoboCop out, the film still doesn't 'feel' like a RoboCop film. The wardrobe, weapons, props, and indeed the world environment in the movie itself had a distinct 'post-present' type of future look and tone to it, something that was almost deliberately avoided in R3, outside of Robo himself and maybe a couple of other things. But I consider all that a production/production-design fault more than anything.
I will agree a big part of that special 'feel' of RoboCop came from Verhoeven, as tones of it are present in Total Recall as well as Starship Troopers. Kershner and Miller did a good job of emulating that atmosphere, but in the end, Jon Davison was the final pivotal piece in the equation, the man that combined with Verhoeven, Neumeier and Miner, also was a critical part of making R1 be what it is, and the man that helped R2 become something that would respect it.
R3 didn't have any of that, and despite their best efforts they were making a mediocre film and that's what they got.
_________________
I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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KidGoesWild
L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 665
Comment: I type it, you think it
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:14 am |
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| Stan The Man : |
Even if he did, the dynamic of the film wasn't the same. Good as Weller was, I don't think he could have improved R3 from what it was any, at least by himself. The film itself went against the world of the original, even if you take RoboCop out, the film still doesn't 'feel' like a RoboCop film. The wardrobe, weapons, props, and indeed the world environment in the movie itself had a distinct 'post-present' type of future look and tone to it, something that was almost deliberately avoided in R3, outside of Robo himself and maybe a couple of other things. But I consider all that a production/production-design fault more than anything.
I will agree a big part of that special 'feel' of RoboCop came from Verhoeven, as tones of it are present in Total Recall as well as Starship Troopers. Kershner and Miller did a good job of emulating that atmosphere, but in the end, Jon Davison was the final pivotal piece in the equation, the man that combined with Verhoeven, Neumeier and Miner, also was a critical part of making R1 be what it is, and the man that helped R2 become something that would respect it.
R3 didn't have any of that, and despite their best efforts they were making a mediocre film and that's what they got. |
I fully agree
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Mephisto
DC-L1
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Post Count: 2150
Comment: Former Co-Admin and all around asshole.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:03 am |
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| Officer Harvey : | | They've come the closest to getting it right and continue to get better over time, namely the Dynamite series. |
Shiiiiit. :roll:
You mean "Ms. Odenkirk and the Enforcement Droids", cause that shit Dynamite spews out sure as hell isn't about RoboCop.
Frank Miller's stuff at least had RoboCop as a central character, and it didn't have massive Ed-209 bastardizations running around blowing shit up and stepping on people like a bad Godzilla parody.
I was actually into what you were saying about Robocop 3 until I read that comment about Dynamite comics getting it right. That killed it for me.
Frank Miller's stuff looks like a damn masterpiece compared to Dynamite's garbage. I don't really care for Frank's stuff, but at least it's about, oh you know....ROBOCOP, and not some dumb bitch OCP exec constantly saying fuck while talking about her tits and ass, with her fleet of Enforcement Droids running around doing dumb shit.
Yeah, I'd pay $3.50 an issue to read about that. :roll:
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7026
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:42 pm |
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In all fairness, Meph, Harvey's post was 2 1/2 months ago, before this last issue (or even 2 issues ago?). But yeah, Dynamite hasn't really doing a good job of making RoboCop 'not a joke' lately.
Still, R3 had Robo and it failed anyway. At least Dynamite has an excuse.
_________________
I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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Archive
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Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Post Count: 6545
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:03 pm |
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I think it would have been interesting if they had taken a indiana jones/james bond approach and made the movies stand on their own, although with some familiar characters here and there. Robo2 kinda does this, but they could have thrown in a new parter instead of Lewis.
The absolute worst part of Robo3 is the way they shove all those references and stuff from robo1 in your mouth all the time. They should have concentrated on doing their own robo movie instead of reusing what other people had done.
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KidGoesWild
L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 665
Comment: I type it, you think it
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:19 am |
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| Archive : | I think it would have been interesting if they had taken a indiana jones/james bond approach and made the movies stand on their own, although with some familiar characters here and there. Robo2 kinda does this, but they could have thrown in a new parter instead of Lewis.
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I kinda feel both R2 and R3 do this actually. They move on to the next set of villains and new storyline and end it in the same movie. At the same time theyre more connected than Bond/Jones , at least R2 since it answers some burning questions that R1 left - whats next for Murphy, will he cope with his destiny, what we'll he do about his family, will they create more Robocops - why or why not, and more. Of course R2 followed a more classic trilogy approach and just like Empire it had an open ended ending, ironically, as we just mentioned, R3 doesnt even touch the highest ranked villain of the series and dismisses what was left to said. So pretty much only R3 is fully a Bond type of a separate story, detached completely from the other 2.
Edit: on the other hand R3 does wrap up everything by destroying OCP from every angle
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Archive
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Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Post Count: 6545
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:22 am |
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I don't know, i think Robo3 has too many ties & stolen scenes from the first movie to really stand on it's own. It's not a really different enough movie as it still deals with robo facing another robot enemy, a previous character dying and robo felling sorry for himself.
I think it would have been fun if the robo movies had a more striking difference in style and story, like the "mission impossible" movies that really stand out as different movies. In that sense the "corporate wars" script would really have done this but zipping robo to the far future isn't something i would personally like to see.
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KidGoesWild
L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 665
Comment: I type it, you think it
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:04 am |
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| Archive : | | I don't know, i think Robo3 has too many ties & stolen scenes from the first movie to really stand on it's own. |
Oh I certainly agree with that
| Quote: | | I think it would have been fun if the robo movies had a more striking difference in style and story, like the "mission impossible" movies that really stand out as different movies. |
But arent they already? The first one was about Murphy's resurrection, vengeance and finding his identity
The second one was about something completely else with the exception of the closure with the family. It was about taking down the psychotic new drug gang and then facing a giant cyborg with an insane brain
The third one was about Robo joining street fighters and fighting for freedom of Detroit against OCP's stormtroopers and ninjas. While R3 is indeed overly sucking up to the original and making constant winks and homages, its still a very much unrelated story
The only thing that really joints all 3 is OCP as the puppet master
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RoboCop 3 fan commentary
