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Saasouza
L-L1
 
Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Post Count: 430
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  Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:38 pm |
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| ChAnOoD : |
That single thing shows how much faith Sony have for the flick. |
Exactly. Sony is the one to blame. Not the writters, director, creative team..
| ChAnOoD : | | Well, itīs a movie for everyone. Too safe, too clean, and 85% inspired by Nolanīs Batman (which is PG-13, but even that flick shows some gruesome moments without getting gore!). |
For the marketing perpective yes. But the movie itself ended up being much more adult then most people had anticipated. They could have done much better at the box office with a more suitable marketing campaign. And about the gruesome moments, i don't think i ever seen something as gruesome in a PG-13 movie like in that scene when they show Murphy's human remais. In my book they really pushed all the limits there.
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Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Post Count: 6533
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:40 pm |
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| Saasouza : | | They mention Detroit as "America's most violent city" twice in the movie. |
Reminds me of Star wars: The phantom Menace with the line "our people are dying senator, we must do something quickly" and nothing was ever shown of anyone being in trouble whatsoever. Just dropping a line to set up the world building is lazy and uncreative. Never in the Robo remake did it feel like a city out of control.
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Saasouza
L-L1
Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Post Count: 430
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:32 pm |
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| artuditu : | | Just because something is mentioned you cannot tick a box and pretend to include it as a merit to praise and say how subtle and deep the movie is, ask yourself why it didn't connect with the audience and didn't get its message across clearly, and try to avoid being self-indulgent in thinking that everyone (including robofans in this forum) are not smart enough to appreciate it. |
I never said the fans aren't smart enough to understand it. All i'm saying is the original is still so vivid in everyone's mind that it's difficult to get over it and judge the remake for what it is. (And i'm included here despite of everything):
When the movie came out i was so filled with expectations that it took me a fair amout of time to really see what they did there. My opinion from two years ago is written here somewhere in this forum and if you look for it, you'll see i wasn't so found of the movie either.
Now, two and a half years have passed and after watching it many times i changed my opinion: I think it is great and now i'm telling you why my opinion has changed. More than anything, I'm giving you arguments to support it
Still, you don't need to agree with me but this is a debate and you can't simply disregard my arguments simply because most people here won't agree with me.
Everyone knows the movie has a fair amount of good reviews out there.
Maybe the problem is that you know that i'm a fan of BOTH the original AND the remake and you can't really cope with that. Who knows ?!
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ChAnOoD
DC-L4
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Post Count: 2763
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:55 pm |
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| Archive : | | Never in the Robo remake did it feel like a city out of control. |
Not even that, Detroit looked like never! Clean, bright, and only with a few drug dealers doing some bad business (even they look like they werenīt doing anything too bad, as you only saw them on a drug factory at some point and doing some small businness on a street). 
| Saasouza : | | All i'm saying is the original is still so vivid in everyone's mind that it's difficult to get over it and judge the remake for what it is. |
Believe me, I tried my best to judge as a new thing, and I remember how I walked out from the cinema. My opinion were getting worse every step I took. It looked more like a TV-movie or pilot than a movie, and way too much superhero to me. It starts "good" (if you forgive the car explosion thing), but then it becomes a mess. They didnīt know how to continue and it seems a few problems were there: a) the budget, which change the movie to PG-13 (it was intended to be "R"); b) some opinions on the net for the draft found on the net, and c) last time changes, which helped that rushed the final movieīs third act.
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RoboHell
RoboPops!
Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Post Count: 2874
Comment: Murphy had a wife and son....what happend to them?
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:04 pm |
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| Saasouza : | | artuditu : | | Just because something is mentioned you cannot tick a box and pretend to include it as a merit to praise and say how subtle and deep the movie is, ask yourself why it didn't connect with the audience and didn't get its message across clearly, and try to avoid being self-indulgent in thinking that everyone (including robofans in this forum) are not smart enough to appreciate it. |
I never said the fans aren't smart enough to understand it. All i'm saying is the original is still so vivid in everyone's mind that it's difficult to get over it and judge the remake for what it is. (And i'm included here despite of everything):
When the movie came out i was so filled with expectations that it took me a fair amout of time to really see what they did there. My opinion from two years ago is written here somewhere in this forum and if you look for it, you'll see i wasn't so found of the movie either.
Now, two and a half years have passed and after watching it many times i changed my opinion: I think it is great and now i'm telling you why my opinion has changed. More than anything, I'm giving you arguments to support it
Still, you don't need to agree with me but this is a debate and you can't simply disregard my arguments simply because most people here won't agree with me.
Everyone knows the movie has a fair amount of good reviews out there.
Maybe the problem is that you know that i'm a fan of BOTH the original AND the remake and you can't really cope with that. Who knows ?! |
Hey man, to each is own. If you love the movie shout it out, get a Robocop 2014 tattoo, whatever you want to express your love for it. However, you are in the minority, 99.9% of the RoboFans hated it, the regular moviegoer didn't like it, and it was a collective effort to make that movie the turd it was, from the top, all the way to casting Joel. It is what is...a bad movie, it happens.
They should of just waited, of course hindsight is 20/20....but with Deadpool and now others to be released with a rated R rating, I think the director could of done a lot more with that rating.
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:57 pm |
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| artuditu : | | Just because something is mentioned you cannot tick a box and pretend to include it as a merit to praise and say how subtle and deep the movie is, ask yourself why it didn't connect with the audience and didn't get its message across clearly, and try to avoid being self-indulgent in thinking that everyone (including robofans in this forum) are not smart enough to appreciate it. |
This.
| Saasouza : | | Stan The Man : | | As for the IMDB ranking, that 'fact' is a bunch of entirely subjective opinions recorded as a statistic. I still consider this film weaker than the sequels in almost all respects. Popularity is hardly a definitive marker of quality. |
IMDB rating is anything but subjective. You're a registered user and you rate it from 1 to 10 stars and that's it. |
It's nothing more than an aggregation of other people's views on the film. How is a person's personal opinion not subjective? Besides, what random folks who went through the trouble of registering on a general movie site think as opposed to folks here who basically live and breathe Robo think is not that valid a comparison as frankly I think only one party knows more what they're talking about when it comes to RoboCop. This before we get into the other flaws in that argument that artu mentioned (the primary point being that neither are really representative of the moviegoing public at large).
In any event, it's still not a real argument. Consensus =/= quality. Ever heard the phrase 'xx number of fans can be wrong?' Titanic was the highest grossing movie of all time until recently, yet I've heard almost no one, even those who said they enjoy and love the movie, say it was the best movie of all time. Conversely I admit consensus does not necessarily equal lack of quality either, but then again none of us are making that argument.
| Quote: | | It's different from the original and i'm ok if you think the story isn't interesting enough but at least you should try to undestand it. It's more complex than it looks and i'm happy it landed on the hands of a good director otherwise it would have gotten the same crappy reception the sequels had. |
First off, it did get a crappy reception. Or rather, a lukewarm reception, hardly anything really fantastic anyway. Padhila I think had little effect one way or the other - He might have been able to do something if he didn't get hamstrung by Sony. Even then though.. Anyway, I did try to understand it, cut the condescension. There's not much to understand because it's really a rather simple and somewhat dumb movie. It actually does look somewhat smart and deep but that only holds if you don't look too hard. It's not really complex so much as convoluted. Upon in-depth analysis it falls apart due to lapses in logic, muddled together themes and missing details, coupled with a lack of real soul and dull action.. Again, total opposite to the rich original, which only gets stronger the harder and more you look at it.
The drone debate aspect, which was something I was most intrigued by, they rather dropped the ball with. Murphy's story is dwarfed as a part of this supposed big debate - this background arc that doesn't stay in the background yet isn't really committed to, making most of the film lack focus.
Now I'm not saying all films have to pass inspection by a microscope, but again, when thinking only slightly hard into a film that pretends it can deliver there results in much of it falling apart, that's not a failure in understanding, that's a failure in the film. I watch brainless films plenty and don't expect anything out of them, but a film that claims to be layered and complex I will test and if it fails that test, again, that's not really my fault. Or my problem.
| Quote: | | And about the gruesome moments, i don't think i ever seen something as gruesome in a PG-13 movie like in that scene when they show Murphy's human remais. In my book they really pushed all the limits there. |
Pushed the limits? Not really. Not even for PG-13. That said, I used to find that scene one of the better ones, after repeated viewings I now find it rather cringy, and not because of it's graphicness. It's just so blunt it robs the scene of any real shock or power, hurt further by Kinnaman's droll performance. It's still one of the more standout scenes in the film, but still not a 'good' scene, as it were.
| Quote: | | I also believe that if it wasn't for a series of bad things, this movie would have warranted a sequel easily. But the movie opened in US during Valentine's day, which is a crappy thing to do for a movie like this.. and the country was under a heavy blizzard, and the trailers were bad, marketed to children.. And more important, it was made under the shadow of a classic with these whole base of fans arguing against it without even seeing it.. Anyway, if you put all these things in the equation, i think they (the creative team behind it) achieved much more than they were supposed to. |
On this I agree, as do the others - Sony ultimately screwed the pooch. Much of it was with the film itself, but even then, R2014, however lacking it may be, could have fared better in terms of expectation management. As it is, I agree it did fairly well considering.
| Saasouza : | | All i'm saying is the original is still so vivid in everyone's mind that it's difficult to get over it and judge the remake for what it is. (And i'm included here despite of everything) |
We're not the ones that called it 'RoboCop' - Comparisons to the material in which it is based is inevitable; there's a bias in it automatically. Again, that isn't our problem. Even then I'm still very much speaking about R2014 as a film in it's own right, and arguing from a standpoint of a lover of film as much as a lover of the original RoboCop and I have judged the film thusly. Maybe it's difficult to judge the remake as a good film because.. it isn't one.
| Quote: | Still, you don't need to agree with me but this is a debate and you can't simply disregard my arguments simply because most people here won't agree with me.
Everyone knows the movie has a fair amount of good reviews out there.
Maybe the problem is that you know that i'm a fan of BOTH the original AND the remake and you can't really cope with that. Who knows ?! |
1) Actually I can. I'd be asshole, but still certainly could do so. 2) I have my own views, I don't agree the remake is weak because of consensus. That said, perhaps that consensus is there for a reason. Finally, 3) how about you don't dismiss my arguments because you can find people that agree with you? Especially when again those people are just random folks who almost certainly don't live and breathe Robo as you, I - we - do.
There are people out there who regard Prime Directives well, we've had similar debates with them in the past and it ended up the same way - They enjoy what is, in the final analysis, a subpar product. Which again is fine, but many of us are not going to ignore what we have judged to be a subpar product just because they like it. (To be fair, the remake isn't as bad as PD - nothing is as bad as PD) Like artu I still feel a tone of condescension from you, as if nobody is willing to give the reboot even a glimmer of a chance even though we've all seen the remake ourselves, many of us more than once (myself included). Most all of us don't really like the remake, and our reasons for doing so are scattered all through this topic and this forum - Again, the 'consensus' is there for a reason, it didn't come completely or even mostly from blind hate from nostalgic fanboys.
Again, maybe the problem isn't that we're haters, maybe it's that we don't abide a bad piece of RoboCop media. That we tire of Robo being constantly misunderstood creatively, bastardized in almost every piece of media it ever is lucky enough to get onto, and then when it falls short we as fans thusly feel that Robo is dismantled yet again and will not continue forward. I'll admit I'm glad the remake came since it revived an interest in Robo, but that was fairly short-lived - Two years later, aside from that documentary, what of RoboCop are we to expect in the future?
Granted, this has nothing to do with you liking R2014, which as I said you're free to do and as has been said in the past we're not out to hate anyone who does. But majority of us don't like/prefer R2014, we again have valid reasons for doing so (Josh's post right in the first page of this thread sums almost all of it up nicely for me) and we're not likely to change our mind anytime soon. Hence why I say I find such debates tiring. Been there, done that. But if you wanna spend your free time going back and forth and in circles, have at I guess. To each their own, as said.
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ChAnOoD
DC-L4
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Post Count: 2763
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:10 pm |
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I donīt know why, but I read Stanīs post as an epic speech with epic music on the background.
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:42 pm |
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| ChAnOoD : | | I donīt know why, but I read Stanīs post as an epic speech with epic music on the background. |
If by 'epic' you mean horribly and ungodly long and by 'epic music' you mean "Showdown", then I can dig that. 
Seriously, that shit is long.. Bah, I stand firm though - R2014 fairly sucks, Saasouza likes it, we don't, and that's pretty much the bottom line. Now if Stone Cold could just say so for me.
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I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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ChAnOoD
DC-L4
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Post Count: 2763
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:49 pm |
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Somebody has to do another horrible Robothing to move on from RC2014. That said, suddenly the RoboUniverse became quiet. No news about that Internet series, no new RoboComics... The only hope is the new RoboDoc.
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:01 pm |
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Crazy enough I might not mind a sequel if it went somewhere - Either with a new story or actually committing to the point this film tried to really touch on (The 'RoboCopS' idea) while either way really taking heart of a 'lessons learned' sheet from R2014, but that most likely ain't gonna happen. Unless it does and it is that thing that is worse.  I still to this day prefer more a kind of resurrection story anyway, but whatever.
Back to topic, anyone remember all those 'epic speeches' I did about the horror of a motor bike for Robo and that turned out to be moot, not because there wasn't one but because there may as well have not been one? I seriously expected some badass but cheesy as fuck chase action with that thing and aside from a jump at the end with ED fight, well, just about nothing. Ended up being about as pointless as the hand - RebootCop really could have hopped in a Taurus like our hero did most of the time. Bah.
Speaking of which, where are these Taurus'? I know there were promo shots of 'em but they're like, nowhere in the film. Then again there's almost no other cops in the film either. ..No crime, no cops. Yeah they definitely filmed that shit in Canada.
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I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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Saasouza
L-L1
Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Post Count: 430
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:58 pm |
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I'm pretty much aware that 99,9% of the fans didn't like it and i've been in the minority since day one in this forum..
My mistake was to put so much faith in the fans believing they would eventually get into it because of their previous knowlegment and devotion to the character.
Turns out 99.9% of the good reception came from the "regular" audience, which are in my belief even more qualified to judge it, because they don't have any kind of commitments, they're unbiased and would bash the hell out of it if they didn't like it.
If here in this forum the movie was disapproved by 99% percent, in IMDB (which is a much larger community) the film had of 62% of approval. Can you see the problem ??
You can also take IMDB out of the equation if you wish: Pay a visit to a number of blogs and movie related websites and you'll find a whole bunch of good, great reviews, done by journalists, film critics - Most of them grades it at least 3 out of 5 - That's the average. That 99.9% disapproval only happens here.
You can say whatever you want, you can argue the movie is bland, that "key" ideas are underdeveloped, that the suit looks bad or whatever but in the end, you know that is blind fandom what's really clouding your judgement.
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Joined: 17 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:42 pm |
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| Saasouza : | | ...you know that is blind fandom what's really clouding your judgement. |
Of course that "blind fandom" argument goes both ways. I have absolutely no idea how you can worship it as much as you do. You seem completely blind with no ability to see any kind of flaw or problem whatsoever. Try to be a little objective. Your unconditional love for the remake is getting way past weird.
I think it's an ok movie. I enjoyed it. But come on, it's not a masterpiece of cinema. It's fine. It's Decent. But nowhere near great.
Oh and there are plenty of reviews out there that absolutely shredded the movie. empireonline and the guardian to name just two. There are both good and bad review out there, but I have yet to see any great.
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RoboWags
Ultra Police Watch Commander
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Post Count: 424
Comment: "Its time to show how real cops kick ass."
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:49 pm |
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| Quote: | | You can say whatever you want, you can argue the movie is bland, that "key" ideas are underdeveloped, that the suit looks bad or whatever but in the end, you know that is blind fandom what's really clouding your judgement. |
I think you're mistaking us for Ghostbusters fans . RC2014 didnt get near the amount of hate that Ghostbusters is getting. As a hardcore GB fan myself I have to say that im ashaimed by the negative backlash. When RoboCop was being made there were a select few that i was tired of reading negative posts from for the reasons you state above however their fears about the movie turned out to be justified. Ever since Robo3, weve seen the watering down of RoboCop to appeal to the family demographic. Each time, it fails. The Series, Alpha Commando, RC2014, (PD returned us to the violence of the original but failed us with a terrible cast, the worst Robo ever, and a cheesy score) all missed the mark. The studio wont learn fromthis and that is their problem. As far as RC2014 is concerned, when you are working with an established IP there is a certain expectation that you need to meed or exceed to honor that IP. That movie failed to do so. It lacked much of what made the original great. I would say that it suceeded in being an interesting action scifi film but not a good RoboCop film. The violence and satire mixed with the strugle of Murphy to regain what made him human is what its all about. Shoehorning in the struggle by dropping his dopamine levels doesnt count...
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Saasouza
L-L1
Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Post Count: 430
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:01 pm |
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| Archive : | | Saasouza : | | ...you know that is blind fandom what's really clouding your judgement. |
Of course that "blind fandom" argument goes both ways. I have absolutely no idea how you can worship it as much as you do. You seem completely blind with obsession and with no ability to see any kind of flaw or problem whatsoever. Try to be a little objective.
I think it's an ok movie but, come on, it's not a great piece of cinema. It's decent at best and there are plenty of reviews out there that absolutely shredded the movie. empireonline and the guardian to name just two.
Man... |
Never said it was perfect. I'm just not afraid to acknowledge the good things about it. When it comes to RoboCop i'll subscribe to anything that has a quality stamp as opposed to fabricating quality where there's any, (sequels, tv series, etc.) That's the difference.
Bad reviews ? Shure you can find a whole bunch of them - The movie is far from unanimity. But one thing is consensus, other thing is distorting facts and numbers to your own fit. For the two negative reviews you sent me, there's three other positives, including Variety, IGN, Huffington Post, Dan of geek, Hollywood reporter just to mention a few..
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What went wrong with RoboCop 2014
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