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"DARK FATE": does it bold well for RC Returns?
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Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:39 pm Reply with quote

With the current news that "DARK FATE" has supposedly flopped at the box office, what could this mean for "ROBOCOP RETURNS"? One of the writers was working on Neumeier’s and Miner's script. I wonder if MGM were looking to see how the new "Terminator" film fared.

Is it any good? Has anyone here seen it? I haven't bothered myself, based on the trailers earlier this year and other clips. Linda Hamilton's performance felt too hammy and the action was the same, head-spinning CGI routine we're all too tired of.

The director also struck me as arrogant in BTS material. Dismissing the iconic thumbs-up shot from the end of "T2" in a Q&A. He thought it was too sentimental, which was ridiculous. Not only was he criticising the creator and his own producer (Cameron), Cameron himself cited him as exceptionally difficult in post-production.

Everyone, including some fans by the sound of it, are blaming the failure on the previous 3 films. It's been a good 4 years since ”GENISYS” while it wasn't the best outing, Cameron *did* endorse it. Him doing a 180 on that opinion and slamming it (incl. the other sequels) felt unprofessional and unnecessary. Hamilton too indulged in that, which was rather cocky, given how long she’s been out of the limelight.

They may not have been well-received and were uneven in parts, but I liked "SALVATION" a lot. Enjoyed some of "GENISYS" and "RISE OF THE MACHINES". I wonder if Cameron regrets not writing & directing "Dark Fate". Don’t understand how he couldn't have paused production on the "AVATAR" sequels and handled T6 with Bill Wisher. Together, they made the first 2 films work on the scripts - and you don't need 6 men to turn out a screenplay. That's been the case with "DF"...and as a result, too many cooks in the kitchen.




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Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:20 pm Reply with quote

Lol, nothing supposed about it, it's flopped almost as hard as Disney's Star Wars Galaxies Edge theme park! Don't think it will have much bearing on the RoboCop movie, as long as the director and actors don't try to take a massive shit on the fans of the franchise and deliver a movie worthy of the franchise, unlike the director for Dark Fake, or Woke Fate as we call it, then things won't end out as bad!
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Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:07 am Reply with quote

Surely this must be the last we will see of the Terminator for a long time? The last three movies (all planned as the first of a new trilogy) have all failed. It is obviously not something the super hero generation want to see anymore, and it doesn't necessarily have to do with if the movie is good or not. I thought Dark fate was an ok movie, but the problem with the terminator format is that it has all been seen and done before, and although Dark fate ignores the sequels it sure does "borrow" a lot of ideas from them.

Robo unfortunately always gets affected by current times as we all know happened with the series and the remake. I wouldn't be surprised if the failing of Terminator impacts the next RoboCop movie in some way, even if it is a small impact.




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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:59 pm Reply with quote

I'm surprised they thought bringing Linda Hamilton would be enough after the absolute disaster Genysis was.
I agree with Archive the problem seems to be generational, Robomake or Dark Fate are not worse than a few superhero movies that did much better, but they just don't connect with the younger audiences, and they piss off the older audiences.

Star Wars, Marvel and some DC movies (Joker) are good at creating insterest in both the younger and older generations, and even when one of the two target audiences fail, the movie can still make good money. But R/T seem to fail with both.
Plus not being part of a bigger franchise/shared universe with many characters and worlds to combine.

I feel the sci-fi robotic element of Robo and Terminator might also be outdated, for the younger audience that is used to Iron Man special effects, a Robo/T movie might feel like a downgrade.
Even look at Alita, very high sci-fi, tons of cyborg robotics, robocop/terminator themes, big budget, manga niche audience... and still it performed subpar. Was it worse than Venom, for example? No way.

Now, to be honest, 2 decades ago, I saw more chances for Terminator franchise to survive with the post-apocalyptic horror/action man vs machine war, but the zombie trend took over and dominated that space and the type of stories it could have spawned. T: Salvation missed its opportunity, too much generic chase-action and little horror or war battles. If they went for something like a mix of Walking Dead and Game of Thrones with terminators instead of zombies/white walkers, maybe they would have had a chance, but they panicked and ran for cover trying to redo T2 over and over again (we already had three T2 rehashes if you think about it).




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Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:11 pm Reply with quote

artuditu :
I feel the sci-fi robotic element of Robo and Terminator might also be outdated, for the younger audience that is used to Iron Man special effects, a Robo/T movie might feel like a downgrade.


I kinda disagree, or rather I think it's an inaccurate way of comparing them. RoboCop was heavily inspired by Iron Man, going so far as to showcase an Iron Man comic in the movie. The two share a lot of DNA. And one thing I loved about Iron Man when the movie first came out is that it relied on practical effects and physical costumes a lot more than many of the other superhero or sci-fi movies at the time. CGI wasn't quite as good back then and the physical suit of armor was noticeable and impressive. One thing I love about the MCU movies is that they still rely heavily on physical costumes and locations. The CGI and visual effects have increased drastically in the MCU since Iron Man came out, but even in the most effects laden scenes of Endgame they were wearing real costumes and using real props.

RoboCop is notable for its mind-blowing physical effects, stunts, costumes, etc and it is a huge part of the appeal of the first movie. That was cutting edge in 1987, but it does not mean RoboCop needs to stick exactly to that formula. CGI shouldn't be a dirty word and we shouldn't fear it affecting RoboCop, as long as it makes for a great film/show/whatever. The reboot's final action scenes were a mess of CGI and nothing looked real. But that doesn't mean it always has to be the case. Rather, I suggest RoboCop look again to Iron Man as inspiration, and if a new Robo film could capture that balance of physical and digital as the Iron Man movies I would be totally satisfied.

Yes, on paper RoboCop does seem a bit outdated. A slow moving cyborg isn't exactly stunning to kids in the 21st century. But that does not mean RoboCop's DNA can't work in the 21st century. To me, all he needs is a fresh coat of paint so to speak. The problem with these Terminator movies is they keep trying to do the same thing, bringing Arnold and Linda back just shows how much those characters and ideas are outdated. But I think back to Terminator Salvation, which had a fresher approach and seemed much better received than the latest Terminator films. Maybe it wasn't a universal success, but it shows that there is a way to move forward with these franchises, not stay in the same place, or even worse go back to square one like what happened with RoboCop last time.

Superhero movies are more popular than ever, and as a lifelong comic book fan I couldn't be happier. But not everything has to be a comic book movie to be successful. I think RoboCop could do well to take some inspiration from Iron Man and other comic book films, but also has enough unique elements that could make a new film stand out among this crowded era of action films. After all, the reason the MCU movies are much higher regarded than the DC movies is because they are overall much better films. Audience tastes have changed a lot since 1987, but I still think that at the end of the day audiences in general want good and entertaining films more than anything. RoboCop could satisfy today's audience as far as I see it, but I think to appeal to the younger audiences today, but I also think that many of us here would feel left behind.




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Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:04 pm Reply with quote

havent seen DF yet, but the trailers looked very derivative . Im sure they will give robocop another stab, eventually. Hollywood is creatively anemic .



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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:47 am Reply with quote

I thought the KFC ads killed any hope of this RoboCop sequel being treated seriously.



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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:13 am Reply with quote

I've always said the two franchises were closely linked, and this does look bad at first glance. Especially since RoboCop has been out of the spotlight longer than Terminator. I haven't seen the film yet; it just didn't look interesting to me (which may have been part of the problem in general), but the reception has been pretty good surprisingly. It's even more elevated when compared to every sequel after 2. The common trend here is either Linda Hamilton or James Cameron. And no offense to Hamilton, but I think Cameron being there offered invaluable guidance and kept a sense of continuity to what fans embraced in the series originally. Personally, I really only care about the Arnie Terminator, but I feel they used Hamilton as the selling point because Genisys was Arnold's grand return and that fell short.

So a takeaway from this is that big stars won't make a difference. Whether or not Weller returns won't change the general audience's interest level. But it's worrisome that a generally well received movie from a beloved franchise still bombed. I don't know how to interpret that; it was definitely well-advertised. I usually doubt that internet controversy is enough to tank a film, but that's the only negative exposure I've seen for the film; director inserts politics and insults fans that don't agree with his direction.




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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:43 pm Reply with quote

Slash Man :
Whether or not Weller returns won't change the general audience's interest level.


I have to slightly disagree, as this is a totally different situation. I do agree that the general public doesn't really care or even know who Peter Weller is, but his potential return is totally different than anything going on in Dark Fate. Yes, Linda Hamilton is back after many movies away. But Arnold is the big star of the Terminator Franchise, not Hamilton. Her return would be more akin to Nancy Allen returning, which I would love. But the point is Arnold never really went anywhere. His first big return to Terminator to me would be T3. The franchise hadn't been around for a few years and everybody, myself included, was excited to see Arnold back in the role. By the time of Dark Fate he has 'returned' to the franchise so many times it's like he never left. On top of that there have been huge changes to the canon that make older films irrelevant and make the new films seem like they don't really matter in the grand scope. RoboCop is not as well known as Terminator overall, but doesn't not come with all that baggage from recent years. It's much easier to overlook the bad reboot than the bad sequels that change the whole story like in Terminator's case. Arnold's history with the Terminator franchise is muddy at best and irredeemable at worst. Peter Weller's slate is perfectly clean, the first is a classic, second is generally regarded as at least decent, and he wisely chose out of the bungled mess of RoboCop 3. That's how the public would see it I imagine, so i think they would be more intrigued by him reprising the role after all this time than Arnold taking yet another crack at it, and as I stated before the Linda Hamilton situation isn't a fair comparison because she was never really the driving force of the franchise like Arnold was. And I don't think the Terminator and RoboCop franchises are nearly as linked as our fanbase makes it out to be, most people I know never heard of RvT until I told them about it and never really saw any link other than being 80's sci-fi robot movies, but that's a discussion for another day/thread.




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Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:58 pm Reply with quote

RoboPimp :
RoboCop was heavily inspired by Iron Man, going so far as to showcase an Iron Man comic in the movie. The two share a lot of DNA. And one thing I loved about Iron Man when the movie first came out is that it relied on practical effects and physical costumes a lot more than many of the other superhero or sci-fi movies at the time.


And yet Iron-Man film had much more spectacle and fireworks than Robo. Robo had a wow-factor in 1987, despite its moderate budget, that simply is no more there. It had a unique mix of never seen before robots, and a low-key sci-fi universe, and that combination cannot compete with the big superhero spectacle of nowadays.

I understand why in the remake they went for the serious and realistic approach, but among other things it just lacked the wow-factor of the original. Bringing back practical and physical effects is always good but not enough to grab the attention of the young audiences who have grown up with CGI and videogame language. Only old-school and very cinephile audiences care about practical effects.

To add another nail to the coffin, Robo and Terminator have traditionally relied on guns, while the golden era of gun action movies, from Die Hard to Matrix, is behind, and that's another reason why superheroes are more popular, they are also less controversial in the violence department because superpowers are more mainstream-friendly than filling people's bodies with bullet holes.

I don't say Robo and Terminator franchises are doomed, I'm just pointing some big defining elements that just won't land with YOUNG mainstream audiences (the ones that matter to box-office nowadays) in the superhero landscape of today. Or we can keep wishing that these audiences care about practical effects and Peter Weller as much as we do.




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Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:59 pm Reply with quote

artuditu :
RoboPimp :
RoboCop was heavily inspired by Iron Man, going so far as to showcase an Iron Man comic in the movie. The two share a lot of DNA. And one thing I loved about Iron Man when the movie first came out is that it relied on practical effects and physical costumes a lot more than many of the other superhero or sci-fi movies at the time.


And yet Iron-Man film had much more spectacle and fireworks than Robo. Robo had a wow-factor in 1987, despite its moderate budget, that simply is no more there. It had a unique mix of never seen before robots, and a low-key sci-fi universe, and that combination cannot compete with the big superhero spectacle of nowadays.


The key thing to consider here is the timing. Iron Man didn't come out in 1987, it came out in 2008. Much had changed in the over two decades between those films. Of course Iron Man had more spectacle and fireworks, because that is what the time called for. What was wowing in 1987 wasn't wowing in 2008, just like what was technically impressive in 1966 wasn't blowing any minds in 1987. It would be ridiculous to want or expect exactly the same thing all these decades later. Even the sequel RoboCop 2 upped the body count and had a bigger and badder RoboCop. Once the bar is set you have to raise it, not try to stay at the same level. That's why the special effects are spectacle is bigger and action movies have mugh higher budgets than they did thirty years ago. But that's not to say there is no room for RoboCop at the theater today. The franchise simply needs to go forward, not back, or worse start over again like the reboot. A modern RoboCop movie will have a modern budget. Big action and spectacle are not things we should fear in a new RoboCop movie. After all, they are part of what made the first movie so impressive when it first came out!




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Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:06 pm Reply with quote

I enjoyed Dark Fate. It wasn't particularly fresh or innovative though, and the casting didn't make any difference to the final numbers. You could actually argue it damaged them when the movie lost over 100m. I think the director cost it somewhat, he made some arrogant comments and is now fire-fighting hard to shift blame for his gigantic failure of a movie.

Where DF might influence a RoboCop sequel is on it's budget, it cost 185m to make and had a very big hill to climb in order to be considered a success. I feel a RoboCop sequel could make big money if it's made with a smart story line and smart film-makers - say 100m like the reboot.

You only have to look at the recent Rambo movie - another aging 80s franchise. It cost 50m to make and took home a 37m profit. Job done, money in the bank and none of the woke right-on drivel of the crippled Dark Fate.




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Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:15 pm Reply with quote

As Archive mentioned, the masses are more interested in superheroes with larger than life powers and the ability to be sarcastic and jokey all the time. As surprising as that is to me, the wave of superhero movies is still riding high even though the movies seem to be getting worse. Anyway, Robocop is a realistic tale, albeit futuristic, everything that happens is reflected in the real world, at times to the extremes. The Terminator was similarly realistic, serving as a window into the future. I think that while the Robocop and Terminator movies can be done well with moderate special effects and good acting, they might even be able to be put together in a film, I don't think that the majority of people will get behind it.



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Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:43 pm Reply with quote

The advantage of RCR over TVery HappyF is that it doesn't need to follow Terminator 2. As long as its a good story with some decent action bits in theory it should do well. Also a Gears of War tie in wouldnt hurt.

The trouble is that Terminator 2 finished the story so well that no matter what happened, what was said it didn't matter. Plus Terminator never really felt real despite the advances of AI.

Salvation, which I liked, didn't feel like the Future war that was promised, gave away the twist in the trailer and thus everyone hated it(?) So we just gotta do Terminator 2 in worse and worse ways now.

Robocop, in theory, could have been the start of a series based on being a dark mirror of our world. Social Decay, public services becoming privatised for profit, anything really. This kinda happened. If they put a bit more love in the scripts they might have been able to milk it longer.

Now this post is just confusing. And I know it. Overall I dont think Dark Fate is a prediction for Robocop Returns. Bare in mind Dark Fate is following the disappointing 3, Salvation and Genesys. Whereas Robocop 2 and 3 are pretty much kinda forgotten and the Robocop Reboot wasn't completely shit.




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