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eft R-L3
Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Post Count: 27
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:12 am |
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RegalSin : | Keep in mind, he also made the note, that the company was started by himself. |
On a side note, original movie also hints that OCP was started by Old Man. In the final boardroom scene, just before RoboCop's arrival, Jones says: "Because whatever happens, this corporation will live up to the guiding principles of its FOUNDER: courage, strength, conviction" and execs start clapping. Look at the Old Man: he stands up and I think he clearly receives this applause as a founder. So Dick mentions founder -> founder receives applause from execs -> founder rises from the chair.
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ElectricSoul O-L5*
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Post Count: 147
Comment: Listen to me,you FUCK!!
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Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:43 am |
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yeah,unfortunately the character suffered from film to film:
Robo 1 - the founder of OCP, somewhat kindly,seemed genuinely to want to help Detroit and the police. then again,after Kinney is killed by ED-209, he's "disappointed" as ED-209's "Little glitch could cost us $50 million in interest payments alone!" so there was the underlying current of corporate greed as well. but Dick Jones calls him "A sweet Old Man,and he means well." ...so,generally he was a good guy.
Robo 2 - turned into a completely evil corporate cartoon. is willing to compromise the lives of Detroit's citizens to take over the city,and when Johnson calls him on this, he tells Johnson he needs "To look at the bigger picture,the foreclosure." he also openly condones murder,in allowing RoboCop 2 to be sent to kill the Mayor and all witnesses at that meeting. and during and after the RoboCain massacre, his only concern is trying to get out of jail time,and pinning the blame for the mess on one person. hell,he even steps over a dead body in full view of the cameras!
...the character certainly grew from film to film,but was almost 2 different characters ! the actions,and general tone of the Old Man in Robo 2 was more in line with Dick Jones than what was established in the first film for him.
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KidGoesWild L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 663
Comment: I type it, you think it
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Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:20 pm |
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Ill never understand what people found kind in the Old Man. The guy looked like Hitler from the beginning, and even Dick Jones was too scared to cross him. He completely brushed off a guy blown away only thinking about losing some investors money, same way he just stepped over a body in the second one (a move which was O'Herlihy's idea btw)
Yeah, he said they need to clean the city from crime, but we never see him behind closed doors in the first one. In the second one he also says to the press that the city needs to be drug free and clean of crime, same exact thing.
As fr killing, he was hesitating, but knew the entire company was at stake, and the killing wasnt even his idea
Again, I had never ever for a second thought the Old Man was sincere, good or kind or that he wanted to really help the city (lol)
In O'Herlihy's words about Old Man in R1, "he was pretty ruthless in number 1 but that was good because of the comedy in the character . The man was so ruthless that you laughed. (...)The thing that made the Old Man work in number 1 was that he was outrageous, I think we should try to get that into it" - Starbust Magazine 1990
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http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/
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Stan The Man Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:02 pm |
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I'm with KGW, don't see how anyone could ever see the Old Man as actually 'good' in the original (Though reading though this topic, noone has actually really said that.. Bah, I thought somebody did! ). Anyway, he had a more positive perception, but I always felt that, as KGW stated, he was more likable and acceptable because he was in the background, with the whole 'Being above the battle' thing as it were - That doesn't make him a good or nice guy, never did to me, especially given his reactions to what happened around him, and that fact of what he was - the head of OCP, which was a multitude of things that almost none of which could be considered 'good' in any sense.
People complain about inconsistency of the character but it has been generally agreed there's not much we do know about the Old Man as a character, R2 is the most we ever see of him. What we do know has always seemed mostly consistent to me though.
That said, one thing that is a bit jarring is that he is the focus in R2 when he wasn't before, the discomfort of that I feel is the main motivation behind the belief that it 'wasn't the same character' between the films. Looking at it objectively though we don't see much of the character at all in R1, so again, could have been (and indeed was) that away all along and the shift to it in R2 was just a bit rough because it was in your face and not subtle like the original. The Old Man wasn't in focus in R1. In R2 he was now in focus, and in that focus, we see more, we see more what he is, the real him. No he isn't quite the same but that's kinda the point, and it's not like he started as an actually developed good/nice character and then shifted completely around, he just didn't seem as bad a character in R1. Doesn't mean he wasn't. Still, I've heard people say that he seemed to be a 'nicer' guy in R1 and that was it, no other argument against his role as the second central villain in R2. Never really got that. I always just figured he was showing more his true colors in R2. It might have been a somewhat abrupt change but it worked fine considering - It certainly was never drastically different enough to not be believable, at least to me anyway.
On slightly different note, someone said that R2 failed to retain the Old Man's supposed 'humility' shown at the end of the first film. I don't think there ever was any such thing but thinking on it now, that IS something that was done with the 'Chairman' character in the Series (which was just a renamed Old Man). There's a 180 in character personality if ever there was one. Even so, I did like having a nice/good version of the 'above the battle' Old Man despite it's total departure from the film and how goofy it was done throughout the show, it was still a nice tangent to see. _________________ I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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ElectricSoul O-L5*
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Post Count: 147
Comment: Listen to me,you FUCK!!
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Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:42 pm |
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I guess I just always go back to Dick Jones in the original : " He's a sweet old man. And he means well."
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KidGoesWild L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 663
Comment: I type it, you think it
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Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:06 pm |
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Well, Oherlihy described hes character in the first as so ruthless it was funny. And I doubt Jones was serious, otheriwse what would hold him from sending Boddicker after him to assume number one position right away. I always felt that Old Man was just a guy you didnt f**k with, and he had that presence in the first movie already. Were talking about a man who led Police to strike and didnt have a slightest respect for human life. He havent even shown fear but anger when taken hostage, and only adjusted his tie after Jones was blown away
One can only think what Jones knew about him that made him tremble in his presence and lower his head when meeting his fury, and not even consider taking him out so he can take his place sooner and easier
Jones said: "He's a sweet old man, and he means well". But why would Jones reveal the true nature of Old Man to some rookie that just got into the big league and who's hands aren't even dirty yet? Besides, the audience knows full well that the Old Man is neither sweet nor good and the movie speaks for itself. He means well alright, but for him and OCP
______________________
http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/
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Stan The Man Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:34 pm |
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As Ronny Cox said in the 20th interview - 'Villains of Old Detroit' -
"The only one I'm concerned about is the Old Man.. guys like you, no worry." _________________ I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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RegalSin ;
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Post Count: 73
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Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:42 pm |
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Well according to the TV series, the Ole Man, is the founding father of OCP, from the ground up. Meaning it was a small business that boomed over the years. While he did try to kill Robo a whole bunch of times during the Marvel series, including the first animation and comics ( I have not seen the full amount of the other animation ), he eventually took on the role of the senile, sex hungry, maniac who wanted to even kill politicians. Assuming he has a lot in his name, the Old man is a greedy operate monster only second to that of the cartoon, Mr. Burns ( who never sold his slaves ).
Which reminds me, back in college we had a college president, that reminded me of him. College basically the equivalent of OCP and Logans Run.
TheOldManOCP : | As far as his absence in R3, it's possible that he decided to step down due to the money problems OCP was having. I doubt his character would have wanted to be "second-banana" to an incoming buyer (in this case Kanemitsu). It's possible that he just stepped down to preserve his image and enjoy retirement. |
I really love this point. It makes logically sense for the telelvision series, if it had came after RCP3. He came back, brought out OCP and rebuilt delta city, from the ground up. In fact it would fill the gap, before the TV and after RCP3.
To make things worst, the old man, while a bad doer, of all things, is given a positive look, during the TV series, second to the ( Ed Wynn ) toy maker of toy land. All he cares about his money, and money alone. Without his money, company, and his image he is a soft old man.
So it would seems.
RCP1. Monty Burtns
RCP2. Senile Genon from Knight Sabers
TV. Toy maker of Toyland
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Slash Man O-L2
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Post Count: 78
Comment: Stay out of trouble.
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Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:11 pm |
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What made his character great in the first film? Subtlety. People think of him as some kind grandfatherly figure, but there's quite a few hints that his character isn't quite humble in his pursuits. At the same time, we can't quite pinpoint him as pure evil. I always think back to when Robo busts into the boardroom at the end of the film. The old man has this look that I always interpreted as him fearing that Robo knew something incriminating (similar to how Clarence ratted out Dick Jones).
The second movie, the character was now just a villain - he essentially took the place of Dick Jones. I never quite cared for the obvious nazi symbolism there. Still, having such a character return for a sequel was good enough, and O'Herlihy always makes an impression.
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ChAnOoD DC-L4
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Post Count: 2763
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Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:04 am |
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Slash Man : | What made his character great in the first film? Subtlety. People think of him as some kind grandfatherly figure, but there's quite a few hints that his character isn't quite humble in his pursuits. At the same time, we can't quite pinpoint him as pure evil. I always think back to when Robo busts into the boardroom at the end of the film. The old man has this look that I always interpreted as him fearing that Robo knew something incriminating (similar to how Clarence ratted out Dick Jones).
The second movie, the character was now just a villain - he essentially took the place of Dick Jones. I never quite cared for the obvious nazi symbolism there. Still, having such a character return for a sequel was good enough, and O'Herlihy always makes an impression. |
Well put, Slash. I think the second movie got that (more) over the top than the first one, and when they did that to the characters they became more "one-sided" characters. You´re good or you´re bad, but not both ways.
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Stan The Man Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:31 am |
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Slash Man : | What made his character great in the first film? Subtlety. People think of him as some kind grandfatherly figure, but there's quite a few hints that his character isn't quite humble in his pursuits. At the same time, we can't quite pinpoint him as pure evil. I always think back to when Robo busts into the boardroom at the end of the film. The old man has this look that I always interpreted as him fearing that Robo knew something incriminating (similar to how Clarence ratted out Dick Jones).
The second movie, the character was now just a villain - he essentially took the place of Dick Jones. I never quite cared for the obvious nazi symbolism there. Still, having such a character return for a sequel was good enough, and O'Herlihy always makes an impression. |
Excellently put, Slash. Again, I never saw him as a 'good' character per-say in R1, but certainly not so much a 'bad' one either. As he was kind of in the background and not that prominent, we never could judge much from him one way or the other - Only later in R2, when he's given that higher prominence, do we see more of him and with it more of what he's really about, as it where. But as said, they ended going over the top and playing him as only a 'bad guy', though O'Herilhy still does a good job of portraying some of that kindly-looking, wise, 'above-the-battle' tone like in the first film.
Having gone all back through The X-Files recently, The Cigarette-Smoking Man reminds me very much of The Old Man. In the beginning of the show, you don't really see much of CSM, and don't know what he's truly all about - You get a sense about him, you have something there to go with, but still, it's not an awful lot. But later you see him more and more and with it get more to go on and judge with. I think this parallels somewhat with the Old Man - What we see of him in R1 is limited, we have a sense, a bit of feeling of him, but we don't really know his deal. Later, in R2 we get more of him to go on, as we do with CSM as the series progresses. Though, as said, the shift in Old Man's demeanor and tone is much more abrupt from R1 to R2 compared to CSM, and it's done over the top in R2 as is many things - It really is not very consistent. Ultimately though, to me, it's not as big a flaw as some might make it out to be (in comparison with others in R2), and even so it's one of R2's flaws that really doesn't bother me so much. _________________ I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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